Full hunter 1916 wrist watch

[Gerryd]

I've got this very nice hunter wristlet from the Great War of 1914-1918. Not sure if it every saw the Western front though but never the less a nice time piece. I've serviced it and it runs extremely well for its age but I would really like to put a name to it or at least a movement manufacturer .

 

[Gerryd]

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[wicozani]

Your movement is shown as "unknown" on pg. 217 of "Early Swiss Wristwatches and their Manufacturers 1910-1930: A Research into the 13-ligne Lever Escapement Movement", from Koen Vermeij and Leo van Rijn.

 

[roughbarked]

Still have the feeling that it has the air of Longines about it.

 

[Gerryd]

Your movement is shown as "unknown" on pg. 217 of "Early Swiss Wristwatches and their Manufacturers 1910-1930: A Research into the 13-ligne Lever Escapement Movement", from Koen Vermeij and Leo van Rijn.

Thanks "wicozani "what can I say they didn't even know way back when. Another book I don't have!.

 

[Gerryd]

Still have the feeling that it has the air of Longines about it.

Can you say why? I'm disputing your theory, I do have some Longines from this era but they are all 13.34.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Is the crown original? Looks like it should be on a pocket watch.

 

[roughbarked]

Can you say why? I'm disputing your theory, I do have some Longines from this era but they are all 13.34.

It isn't really a theory, it is just a nagging thought.
Well, I can see some similarities but at the same time there isn't anything concrete to go on.

 

[Gerryd]

Is the crown original? Looks like it should be on a pocket watch.

Yes it’s original, I have a number of wrist watches from this period with very similar crowns to this ill post a picture later on

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I only have a couple with a much flatter crown, the crowns do look cheap though, this looks more upmarket.

 

[Gerryd]

I only have a couple with a much flatter crown, the crowns do look cheap though, this looks more upmarket.

I have watches with different crowns some are right and some are wrong but these are 100 years old and will have been repaired and may be had the crowns changed who knows ?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

yes you would need to see some adverts I guess to see what they had, but those these look like pocket watch crowns they are too small generally for that, perhaps a fashion thing.

 

[Gerryd]

yes you would need to see some adverts I guess to see what they had, but those these look like pocket watch crowns they are too small generally for that, perhaps a fashion thing.

Here are selection of wrist watches most have correct crowns. As you say thats was the fashion . Don't forget wrist watches or wristlets were initially developed from the pocket watch design of the day.
H

 

[wicozani]

Nice collection! I've a very similar collection of WWI wrist watches, evenly divided between American and European. Unfortunately, almost impossible to get parts if needed for the European trench watch movements. At least my old-time watchmaker on the Northern Plains has extreme difficulty (i.e., has never sourced a needed Euro part).

 

[Gerryd]

Nice collection! I've a very similar collection of WWI wrist watches, evenly divided between American and European. Unfortunately, almost impossible to get parts if needed for the European trench watch movements. At least my old-time watchmaker on the Northern Plains has extreme difficulty (i.e., has never sourced a needed Euro part).

Hi
I understand the difficulty in sourcing parts, often the id of the movement is your first challenge. I do my own repairs and today I finished a Electacafter trying to source parts got about 12 months. I was trying to illustrate the different crowns for an earlier poster, I do have others those were main Borgel
Pete

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Late to the thread, per usual. This movement should be from Concord Watch Co--see balance cock markings, serial number below. As to which of their suppliers actually made it, I believe it could be Muller & Vaucher (Recta, Vauchay, etc.).

 

[Gerryd]

Late to the thread, per usual. This movement should be from Concord Watch Co--see balance cock markings, serial number below. As to which of their suppliers actually made it, I believe it could be Muller & Vaucher (Recta, Vauchay, etc.).

View attachment 673264

I can see your observations also the ratchet is in a similar position. An earlier post refers to a photograph in a book and in that photo the balance cock doesn't have the same engraving. The more I stir the water the muddier it gets.

 

[Gerryd]

The setting side.

 

[roughbarked]

It does look like a Recta.

 

[Gerryd]

It does look like a Recta.

I don't know and thats fact, so if anyone has a photo of a Recta movement that resembles this movement with similar bridge or setting layout I would appreciate it.
Pete

 

[mosesgodfrey]

It does not help that were are usually 4+ groups involved at the time, from ebauche stages, to casing, to final retail. The fact that it is not known to date tells me it is likely a complex story.

Thanks for the setting works pic. Amazing to see no marks at all. The austere & fragile-looking setting bridge--and lack of any patent stamp--make me think of Russbach-Hänni ebauches, finished with their setting works. Here's a known RH, with their setting works. Yours seem like a similar treatment.

Bridge matches are out there for your middle bridge. None for overall build yet. Here's one ad example from 1913. Yours is much better quality. I maintain M&V is a contenter, also Russbach-Hänni themselves.

I do think I've found where your watch may have finally ended up, why it is not marked "Concord". See top right in this 1918 ad, which I think shows a variant of your watch.

 

[wspohn]

That sure looks like a converted pockets watch - there were a ton of them done around that time, but it can be hard to tell if the soldering on the band loops was really good and looks factory.

I haven't seen many full hunters that were made as wrist watches, but there certainly are some around.

 

[roughbarked]

I don't know and thats fact, so if anyone has a photo of a Recta movement that resembles this movement with similar bridge or setting layout I would appreciate it.
Pete

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Recta BS

www.ranfft.de

?
and though this is only 12.5''' <span style="font-weight:bolder;">bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Recta 1320</span>

Though Alpina were also involved with Recta.

 

[agemo]

Hi,
I advise you to look at Orion in 12 or 13 lines !
If someone has the movement boards, because I don't have them.
I have just this, and I know it's not the 1325 !

Amicalement GG

 

[Gerryd]

Hi,
I advise you to look at Orion in 12 or 13 lines !
If someone has the movement boards, because I don't have them.
I have just this, and I know it's not the 1325 !

View attachment 673750

Amicalement GG

Hi. That Orion setting looks very close thanks for this. I have best fit but its not in there nor Paulson but I'm noticing that the older versions are not included! Even bidden don't always go this old.
Pete

 

[agemo]

Hi. That Orion setting looks very close thanks for this. I have best fit but its not in there nor Paulson but I'm noticing that the older versions are not included! Even bidden don't always go this old.

Hi Pete,
I have the same problem, and I am sure that some versions of caliber are not listed because they are too old.

Amicalement GG

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Hi,
I advise you to look at Orion in 12 or 13 lines !

Just came to Orion myself, Pete--found an exact match for you (will pm). But I see agemo was already there! Bravo!!

 

[Gerryd]

Just came to Orion myself, Pete--found an exact match for you (will pm). But I see agemo was already there! Bravo!!

I'm confused, nothing unusual about that, I thought I had replied to your post. I'm researching another watch at the moment and I'm using the "Great War forum" and I thought this post came from there Thanks for this I can move forward on both watches now brilliant
Pete

 

[Gerryd]

Just came to Orion myself, Pete--found an exact match for you (will pm). But I see agemo was already there! Bravo!!

My movement is not signed which to be honest leeds me to the conclusion that my movement is identical to the one signed but the question is who made the movement and my watch.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Perhaps I am not understanding the question. The exact setting works are present on other Orions, the exact bridge match I have pm'd to you. Your movement was "made" (finished) by Brandt & Hofmann (Orion). Its serial number is also near those we see for B&H in chronometer tests at the time, another indication this is their movement. I cannot speculate as to the ebauche supplier. That it is unsigned would say it was destined for a 3rd party seller/caser. At this point, I would say you know more about your watch than 99% of unsigned Swiss watches of the time.

Any further clues would need to come from the inner casebacks. I do not see an image currently. Anything of note?

 

[Gerryd]

OK I don't think you misread anything and I wasn't trying to dispute the evidence. I was posing the question if it was made by Orion and they signed other movements why not this one, did they make their own movements and sign them or were they buying ebauche movemnts and signing them? If that was the case then other watch assemblers could use that movement and not sign it. There are lots of watch makers using ebauche movement and signing them as there own? You've only got to look at Borel and see were it lists alternative movement using the same components.
The import mark which is a bit obscure is for GS and the rest is pretty standard, I'm not sure if the serial number is significant.

Its serial number is also near those we see for B&H in chronometer tests at the time, another indication this is their movement.

I'm not sure where you are seeing this data, is it on the internet ?
Pete

 

[mosesgodfrey]

I appreciate the hunt for the full story--it's just that absolute certainty on anything unsigned is difficult. The setting bits and lack of other "footprints" on the dial side are supporting B&H in house. I can confirm that B&H used this same exact setting bridge on other ebauches, where the setting lever and clutch lever are totally different--signed for Orion. And the finishing on the dial side & serial number location and layout are identical to yours, even though they were a different ebauche. You could certainly look further into the movement depose/deposits from B&H, to see if they claimed this bridge design.

About the case, I've seen the "X" case mark before but do not know it. Is this a bureau de contrôle mark? Perhaps an orientation of the + for Berne? Hoping others may shed light. That would at least give a Swiss town in which it was assayed & most likely cased.

The chronometer lists are out there. Partial lists are in the Journal Suisse d'Horlogere, others may know fuller lists. The caution there is brands would often enter or re-enter older movements, so you may see some earlier sn's as well.

Hope this is helpful info.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Edit: need to add one more assurance. Here is the mark of F. Bachschmid (to which B&H were successors). You will see that the anchor design on your balance cock and signed Orions would appear to be an homage.

 

[agemo]

Hi,
Datei:Orion Watch Co. circa 1900 (7).jpg – Watch-Wiki

Amicalement GG

 

[agemo]

https://watch-wiki.org/index.php?title=Kategorie:Bildgalerie_Archiv_Orion_Watch_Co.

Amicalement GG