French/Swiss carriage clock (Capucine) of about 1820/1830

[Bernhard J.]

This was bought together with the William Lee clock from the same seller. The very nice price is due to some damages to the dial and non functional alarm. So this will be a "project".

The hairlines should become nearly invisible by cleaning. The chip will need more. I think about contacting a dental lab for obtaining a perfectly color matched polymere.

The non functional alarm will presumably be an easy repair. I seems that all of the alarm train is present , but only a lever under the dial removed or non functional. So, maybe just a Saturday of sawing and filing.

The movement is of highest quality, examplified by the springs. In the more simple movements these often are brass wires. Here they are not only steel blade springs, but also have spring feet with elaborated form. The wheel train is also well made, see e.g. the crown wheel of the alarm train, which is of conical form.

I tend to date it in the range 1820 to 1830.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Bernhard J.]

The signature "Renon á Roanne" is likely a retailer, the clock was probably made in the Jura area.

Nevertheless, the signature adds a nice touch over capucines without dial signatures.

 

[JTD]

That is a lovely clock. Congratulations!

JTD

 

[zedric]

Nice clock - they are usually surprisingly expensive so good to hear you got a bargain.

 

[leeinv66]

Nice clock! I'm not sure the thread title will be much use to anyone searching for information in the future though.

 

[zedric]

Would that be due to the title?

I wasn't sure what Peter's comment was about either... If you do a search for Capucine, there are a few threads that talk about this style of clock..

 

[Bernhard J.]

I'm not sure the thread title will be much use to anyone searching for information in the future though.

Hi Peter,

What would have been better? I assume that the title can still be amended by a moderator.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[JTD]

Hi Peter,

What would have been better? I assume that the title can still be amended by a moderator.

Cheers, Bernhard

I don't think it needs amending. A Capucine is what it is.

JTD

 

[leeinv66]

My point was that you would only search for Capucine if you knew that was a specific type of French clock. I just felt the title might be a little more expansive (describe the clock a little more). If you do a Google search with just "Capucine", you will be confronted with entries about the French fashion model, nothing about clocks until you actually insert clock as part of your search. Yes, a moderator could edit the title. I was just making a suggestion for the OP to do with as they see fit.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hi Peter,

That indeed is a good argument.

Could perhaps a mod please change the title to "French/Swiss carriage clock (Capucine) of about 1820/1830"?

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[P.Hageman]

The movement is of highest quality, examplified by the springs. In the more simple movements these often are brass wires. Here they are not only steel blade springs, but also have spring feet with elaborated form.

Here are the brass click springs of my circa 1800 capucine with nicely blued screws..

 

[JTD]

I don't think it needs amending. A Capucine is what it is.

JTD

Having thought about it a bit more (I didn't know about the French fashion model of the same name!) I can see that it would be better to have a slightly more explanatory title to the thread.

So I withdraw my previous opinion and agree with Peter and Bernhard.

JTD

 

[Bernhard J.]

Here are the brass click springs of my circa 1800 capucine with nicely blued screws..

Beautiful!

I would love to see some more photos of your clock

 

[Schatznut]

Capucine was delightful as the long-suffering and larcenous wife of Jacques Clouseau in the original Pink Panther movie. Perhaps she drew her name from a very elegant style of clock?

 

[leeinv66]

Could perhaps a mod please change the title to "French/Swiss carriage clock (Capucine) of about 1820/1830"?

Thanks Bernhard, I will change the title. That is a great description. I apologize for not being more expansive in my original post.

Cheers
Peter

 

[P.Hageman]

Bernhard, here you go

 

[Bernhard J.]

This one arrived today also. And when unpacking I had to cry. The dial has cracked and quite a large chip broke out. I found the chip and a few splitters in the packaging material. Aside this the repeat lever was bent, just as the hour hand, but fortunately not broke. A spring on the rear was also bent preventing the strikework to work properly.

It was actually well packed and I wonder once again about those poeple at the parcel services, who apparently handle packages in a very rude manner. At least the hook and spike clock from the same seller arrived in good condition (he had removed the hand, the dial, the bell and some other parts and packed them separately). But this type of clock is, of course, not so delicate like the instant one.

This will now go to my workshop for in particular looking what can be done with the enamel dial. Best would be if the chip can be carefully inserted in the void and fixed therein. The color of the enamel seems to be bright white, so color matching of repair material will perhaps not be necessary. Of course I will check this on a probe before application to the dial. Perhaps I will instead decide to pass the dial to a professional enamel dial restorer. Any recommendations for Germany (if not perhaps within the EC)?

I also need to look what is needed for making the alarm functional. I will make missing parts myself and the finish of reconstruced parts will have to be perfect in order to match the movement´s wonderful quality of workmanship. This will need considerably more efforts than in case of the gathering pallet, which I had made recently and which "matches" in appearance the general rustic movement quality of the Danish long case clock .

Because this clock is absolutely beautifully made and in really fine condition.

Still weeping on my desk , Bernhard

 

[WIngraham]

It is so disappointing when this happens, I will never get used to it.

It is good hands now, I am sure you will be able to recover it. Please post your progress, it is fun to follow your work.

I had the same problem a few days ago.

Will

 

[Bernhard J.]

I have researched a bit and may have found a German enamel dial restorer with a very conservatory approach. According to the website (see below, in German only) this excludes any non reversable "repairs" just as well as treating the whole dial with a clear coat finish is rejected. Instead a dial is cleaned and missing parts are filled with a color matched material and this fill-up polished, but only up to the junction to the original enamel material. It is not the primary aim to make defects completely invisible by very close inspection, but at least not noticeable by the cursory observer.

That is exactly what I personally favor and I will report about response, outcome, and costs.

This is quite interesting for me, since it is the first time that I have a clock/watch with mayor damage. My few pocket watches with (few and faint) hairlines had responded well to my cleaning procedures, they became only visible upon tilting and observing mirror images in the dials.

Cheers, Bernhard

Hintergrund-Infos

 

[daveR]

Yes it is so disheartening when things arrive damage please show us when it is restored. I think we will all feel better !
David

 

[WIngraham]

This company looks like they take the same approach, and it is not too far from you. I have never had an enamel dial repaired. Multiple quotes may give you more info.

Clock & Watch dials | Houbraken Restorations

 

[Bernhard J.]

So, the dial is on the way to the restorer, she anticipates 4 to 5 weeks for having the job done.

In the meanwhile I can tackle a few minor issues. Somewhat a challenge will be to fit a hinge pin to the lower edge of one door, which apparently has broke off. I will need to drill a really tiny hole for inserting and fixing a pin therein. Luckily notbody had yet attempted to soft solder a pin to the door.

And see what to do about the disfunctional alarm. The alarm train is complete and functioning, including the release lever at the front plate. But the setting disc/wheel, onto which the setting hand is mounted, has been butchered. What remains is a short tube with the setting hand, which is held to the dial with a leaf spring engaging with a groove in the circumference of the remainders of this tube, thus attaching the setting hand freely rotable to the dial. I also suppose that there must be some spring holding the release lever in the locking position.

Now I am wondering how the missing parts might look. Does perhaps someone have an underdial view of a similar clock with complete alarm mechanism? That would be really great!

Generally I must note that this clock is very delicate in the design and extremely well made. But definitely not very suitable for traveling under the conditions nearly 200 years ago and surely not anything for heavy handed "repairers". I in this case understand that somewhat not all to sensitive persons can easily ruin e.g. the extremly delicate enamel dial. This originally had 3 positioning pins on the rear of maybe 1-2/10 of a mm diameter (one remains, two have been removed, but the dial would fit perfectly to the front plate and corresponding holes therein, if all were there). The bezel is held on the front plate with tiny screws having square heads of about 1x1 mm (!) dimension. Luckily they were not seized and could be removed without problems.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hello,

Here are photos showing how it looks presently. Pressing the lever near the center releases the alarm. In the shown position the lever blocks the alarm work. The lever is not springed to either position. The tube of the alarm hand has been cut where the arrow points to.

There should be something, which is attached to the wheel carrying the hour hand, for actuating the lever I would suppose? I have no idea about the interaction of alarm setting wheel (missing) and hour wheel





Cheers, Bernhard

P.S.: Of course I do not mind using my photos

 

[Bernhard J.]

I found an under dial view of another capucine and believe that I am starting to get an idea how the alarm release must work.

For comparison my movement (left) and the other one.



It seems that the alarm hand normally would sit on a tube, which is a friction fit to the tube of the hour wheel. This tube has a disc at the end opposite of the alarm hand (i.e. close to the hour wheel). This disc has a kind of a cam surface extending in axial direction (forwardly). Upon the center end of the alarm lever falling into a cavity of that cam surface, this lever end is lowered and releases the alarm train, because the opposite end of the alarm lever swivels away from plate. A spring is missing, which normally pushes the alarm lever into this release position. The cam is formed such, that the lever is pushed against the spring into the hold position most of the time, thus letting the lever swivel back into the release position only when the center end of the alarm lever falls into said cavity. Then the alarm rings. Upon progression of the hour wheel, due to the friction fit of the arlam hand tube on the hour wheel tube, the center end of the alarm lever is slowly lifted into the hold position again, until in 12 hours it falls into the cavity again.

I would presumably need to make 1) the spring for the alarm lever, 2) the friction fit alarm hand tube with the cam at the inner end.

Do you think I am on the right path? If so, it should be a rather easy job .

 

[Bernhard J.]

P.S.: I wonder about some previous bodger, who inactivated the alarm (for whatever purpose). If that had been requested by an owner, it would have been so easy to simply remove the release lever (just one pin to be pulled) and put it in a bag accompanying the clock. A matter of 15 minutes (including coffee). Instead apparently the alarm hand tube was butchered (the inner part with the cam cut off and discarded) and a groove cut in the rest thereof for the blade spring, which holds the hand to the dial. And removing the release lever spring and discarding it as well.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Do you think I am on the right path?

That was rubbish ! It might work that way, if there was a setting disc for the alarm, which rotates together with the hour hand. The setting hand, of course, is not intended to rotate.

I need to think again .

 

[Bernhard J.]

Todays job: repair the broken off hinge pin on one side door. It is seen fairly often that one of these pins is broken off and a piece of brass is soft soldered to the position. That really looks awfull.

The idea of a simple solution for this issue was to drill a hole into the door plate and insert a brass pin. The thickness of the brass plate is 0,8 mm. The hole should not be larger than 0,4 mm considerung that exact drilling in parallel to the main faces and in the middle is not easy. I decided to use a 0,3 mm drill. First the face was carefully filed for removing any remainders of the broken off pin and creating a flat surface. Then a freshly ground centering punch was used for placing a punch in the surface. Then initially the 0,3 mm drill was applied by hand for creating a pilot hole. Then the hole was drilled using a Dremel to a depth of about 3-4 mm, thereby carefully observing that the hole is drilled exactly in parallel to the main faces. Then a tapered pin was inserted and tapped in, shortened and the end rounded. Worked out well, here are some photos.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Once again I tried to figure out how the alarm release might have been designed. I failed once again. Same with looking at the reference photo (see above) showing another capucine, wherein I assume that the alarm is functional. The only difference I see is a spring pushing the release lever end at the hour wheel against a surface of the hour wheel. My clock has this spring missing and I will make now it despite having any idea for my actual problem. Does nobody have any ideas?

 

[Bernhard J.]

Now I have made the missing spring. Made from a flat piece piece of brass and a brass wire. I could polish the spring block and blue the screw head. But 1) I am lazy, 2) it is under the dial and nobody will see it, and 3) if someone disassembles the clock it will become evident that it is added and not original.






Now I only need to know, you know what -

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Bernhard J.]

So, here are photos of a reference object, with the parts disassembled. The alarm actuation as seen in the left photo is apparently very similar to my clock.

The parts (right) are assigned to the mounted positions (left). There are three parts (encircled) where I do not know where they go and suspect that in particular the two in the middle have something to do with the alarm function. Any ideas?

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Bernhard J.]

View attachment 749827

Looking and thinking lets me believe that at least the left part probably is part of the striking mechanism, and not of the alarm release.

It will sit here, i.e. at the rear plate and rotate once in an hour.



So, this "exploded" image will also be of no help, except that what I have found in my clock is just the same in the reference clock .

The tube of the setting hand has been filed down on the circumference also. So it would probably be interesting how this originally looked like.

 

[Bernhard J.]

By the way, my clock strikes the hours and the half hours. The struck hours are repeated about 3 minutes after the full hour. This is presumably the same in the reference clock and for this function presumably the disc shaped part, rotating once a hour, in the previous post is responsible.

 

[Bernhard J.]

After looking at various photos found in the internet, it appears that the mimic for setting the alarm time and releasing the release lever is exclusively on the alarm hand or its guide and reaches over the tube of the hour hand. That is presumably also the reason that the parts are not evident (to me at least) in the "explosion" photo, because it does not show the nads, in particular the alarm hand. Unfortunately, side photos of assembled clocks I found in the www are at an unfortunate angle, so it is not apparent what the parts attached to the alarm hand look like. I do note, that the parts behind the back plane of the plate carrying the dial (i.e. what is seen in my photos) appear to be complete (now) with nothing missing.

Perhaps someone who owns a Capucine could take a photo for me? All that would be needed is to open the two side doors (they open at the front). Photos would then have to be taken diagonally from behind and towards the dial center. This is because the relevant mimic is probably located in the area of the plate that carries the dial, and is therefore obscured when viewed straight on from the side. Perhaps it would be possible to take several photos with different positions of the alarm hand?

That would be really great!

About like this photo of my Capucine, where you can see the butchered tube of the alarm hand.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Ha, I believe I have got it now!

The release lever is preloaded by the spring I have now made (see above) to push the hour wheel axially in the direction to the front plate of the movement and at the same time releasing the alarm train.

The alarm hand has a disc with a recess at the outside (!), i.e. facing the rear of the hour hand. The rear of the hour hand in turn has a protrusion. The arrangment is such that the disc normally (i.e. when the alarm train is wound, though blocked by the release lever) pulls the hour wheel axially away from the front plate of the movement, against the spring force of the spring I have added, thus swivelling the release lever into the position blocking the alarm train. Disc with recess and protrusion are the missing parts.

If now this protrusion on the rear of the hour hand falls into the recess of the disk on the alarm hand (all on the outside side of the dial!), the hour wheel falls back in direction of the front plate of the movement, thus releasing the alarm. The recess has a slope on one side extending tangentially, thus pulling the hour wheel again away from the front plate of the movement with advancing time, and so blocking the alarm train again. Until the hour hand protrusion again falls into the recess of the disc of the alarm hand.

That is the only way it can work. Sounds weird though, but is the only explanation for the springed arrangement of the release lever. In summary, the (missing) setting device is on the outside of the dial and not under the dial

P.S.: That will presumably make it necessary to make a new release lever, because it is relatively sloppy in its swivel motion. That also might explain marks on the release lever, which indicates that someone has bodged around therewith in trying to make the movement work reliable. The design in detail will be crucial for preventing the clock stop running.

 

[Incroyable]

This company looks like they take the same approach, and it is not too far from you. I have never had an enamel dial repaired. Multiple quotes may give you more info.

Clock & Watch dials | Houbraken Restorations

Houbraken was the one who made the dial for Derek Pratt's H4 reconstruction.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Based on my hypothesis I did another research for photos. And it seems that my hypothesis is correct.

In the photo the hour wheel is "lifted" away from the movement plate, see the free space marked black. When the protrusion of the hour hand (marked blue) falls into the recess of the alarm setting hand, the hour wheel jumps to the left and the alarm release lever swivels into the "alarm" position.

So all I need to do now is to make and fix the missing protrusion to the hour hand. I recall having noticed and wondered about a recess in the collar of the alarm hand. And get all adjusted to work properly. That includes the exact axial position of the dial itself, so that I can complete this work only after having received the restored dial

 

[Bernhard J.]

To a Moderator: would it be an idea to split off all postings after and including #19 and shift them to a new thread in the clock repair section titled "French Carriage Clock (Capucine), Repairing Disfunctional Alarm Mimics"? That would presumably make it easier to find for anyone encountering similar problems.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Yesterday I had a look at my clock again and discovered that the lining of the alarm hand has a recess in the outer face going about 1-2 mm deep in axial direction and having one perpendicular shoulder at one end and an inclined ramp at the opposite end (tangentially). This lets my hypothesis become evidence. So I will just need to add a protrusion to the back of the hour hand lining.

I then did some adjustments to the release lever (vulgo: bending) until the axial stroke of the hour wheel was such, that in a first position the hour wheel rests against the respective flange of the movement plate and the alarm is released by the release lever, and that in a second position the hour wheel is lifted off said flange by 1-2 mm and the alarm is blocked by the release lever. And everything still moves easily back and forth and that the spring has sufficient force to push the hour wheel via the release lever against the flange of the movement plate.

Since the alarm hand is mounted on the dial, it will later be decisive for the function how far the hour hand or its hand tube must be pushed onto the shaft of the hour wheel. All of this is pretty fiddly and delicate And potentially disfunctional, especially if heavy handed people are operating the hands.

Funny is a video of a sales listing I saw, wherein the clock is described as functional and the alarm demonstrated as ringing. However, in a position of the alarm hand, wherein the alarm should be blocked

I assume that the alarm release mechanism of many of these clocks will not work properly and need adjustment or further work.

Antike Repeater Messingkutsche Vincenti Uhr Napoleonische Kriege Made in France | eBay

 

[Bernhard J.]

Todays job: repair the broken off hinge pin on one side door.


View attachment 749533

Here two "average" repair job examples of this issue ....
It might be noted that the door then also does not stand in the proper position any more.