French made English style verge - what do I have :) ?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by pmwas, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #1 pmwas, Apr 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Hi!

    I came across such verge watch recently:

    xyzzytom_339687

    xyzzytom_339686

    It looks English, but the movement is French:

    xyzzytom_339685

    Detalis here:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/entry.php?314-Late-English-looking-verge-watch

    What do I have?
    French watch for English market? English finished French ebauche?
    I was sure it's an English watch buying it - such suprise ;)
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Paul,

    Almost certainly a French watch in the English style aimed at the latter market. I should think that any English finisher who worked on a piece like this would be drummed out of the Brownies!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  3. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Thanks!
    Looks like the simpliest explanation, yes...
    Like the idiom, never heard that one before :)
     
  4. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    it may be that the explanation is simple. this movement is an example of the watchmaking of geneve. that was ancient and renowned as the English one. in photographs two examples of movements made in Geneva, one signed Quartier en Locle 1776-1852 others signed Debrit J L about 1831
    301437.jpg 301438.jpg 301439.jpg 301440.jpg
    regards enrico
     
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  5. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #5 pmwas, Apr 10, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
    The first movement is very similar no doubt...
    I'm pretty sure my both presumed French verge watches are made by the same maker, as they have common, identical features, including very similar plates markings (stamps). Maybe they are both Swiss, then? Or could it be a Locle retailer selling a French movement? It's not getting any simplier now :) !!!

    p.s.
    notice the English style Fast Slow markings - this movement was meant to look like na English one no doubt.
     
  6. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    Switzerland used Fast Slow for all foreign markets except the German market (who disliked F S) and rarely on the Swedish market
    regards enrico
     
  7. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #7 pmwas, Apr 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Of course, everyone used FS or fast slow.
    Still, the finish of this movement is very English-style.

    Also, the other movement I've mentioned is this one:

    xyzzytom_314251

    xyzzytom_314247

    I don't know if you had time to read the blog post:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/entry.php?307-Old-rusty-verge-watch-from-France-continued

    ...but in the pictures you'll see this movement is so similar, I'm pretty sure both movements made by the same factory.

    This larger watch has French silver hallmarks (circa 1830), so it was presumed to be French made - possibly Japy Freres.
    If this indeed is French, I think so is the one we're talking about today. If this one, however, is Swiss, I think this earlier one as well...

    It's getting complicated, but surely many movements looking exactly alike this 1830 piece have French signatures, so I think these are French made watches. Or are they :) ?

    Such a shame the factory did not leave a mark anywhere...
     
  8. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    seeing the last photo of the blog, I can understand that it is definitely French.
    regards enrico
     
  9. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #9 pmwas, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
    I've adjusted the beat, bt even better - running through my parts' box I've noticed a Waltham 1857 (Home Watch Co grade) steel-set cap jewel. It's not like original, but fits much, much better!

    301480.jpg

    Of course, you see it in a great close-up, in real life it's barely noticable at quick glance now :)

    View attachment 419375

    301480.jpg
     
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  10. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Enrico has mentioned Olivier Quartier. I once had two watches signed by this maker, one in normal Swiss style and the other very similar to the one initially posted by Paul. This item even had the maker's address engraved on the barrel-bridge in 'Old English' script with flourishes around it, very much in the Liverpool manner of the period. And yet that address was not given as Liverpool or London but as Locle; in other words there was no attempt to conceal the Swiss origin of the watch.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  11. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #11 pmwas, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Now that's interesting :)
    I've just found an English style Quartier watch myself :)

    https://mb.nawcc.org/entry.php?338-An-old-Swiss-watch-from-Locle

    xyzzytom_350958

    Still - Quartier watches were of good quality, this one...

    xyzzytom_339761

    ...is nowhere near them :)
    The might (except the size) look very much alike, but just look at the details, it's way worse than the Quartier...
     
  12. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    I've done some more research on Olivier Quartier watches - it appears England or North America was indeed the market of manufacture's main interest. Many cylinder bridge model watches were actually marked in English.
    I'm curious, though - I've recently bought a cylinder watch marked Olivier Quartier (both case and movement). It's an 'ordinary' cylinder bridge model, quite big (47mmcase diameter).
    Now - I bought it because I thought a few Quartier watches (swince I already have one) could be a nice sub-collection, but is it possible this movement was made before Quartier's death in 1852?
    I have no idea since when such movements were made. I think it actually could be mid-1800s, but I just don't know...

    Notice, the picture is seller's picture from eBay, listing closed ;) 311923.jpg
     
  13. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    That’s an old one - most pics gone...

    Today I took this watch to rework the escapement problem. The watch was running ultra-fast on low amplitude. I’ve obviously gained some experience in the last three years, so I hoped I could fix that.

    What caught my eye was a very worn escape wheel. Flat tips of the teeth...

    So I’ve replaced it with a twin and... the watch stopped working at all.

    Now I noticed the escape wheel was not worn, it had been filed town, so that the teeth would (barely) engage the lower pallet. Yes, the entire balance staff had been replaced and was wrong :(

    I tried to alter the balance bearings to move the balance down a tad, but then the lower pallet was still not engaging and the escape wheel would lock on the hairspring collet (!). That would call for a new staff or... a smaller escape wheel.

    Since the second option could be done straightaway, I chose second. I installed an escape wheel good for the staff - I had a perfect match in my stock :)



    Still fast, but runs reasobably now.
    I’m pretty much convinced it’s a Quartier and it’s definitely in ‚for parts’ condition, but if it runs, why not let it run :) ?
     
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  14. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    My signed Quartier this time... gold plated OF case.
     
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