$ French Fontenoy wall clock value

[jonessva]

French Fontenoy wall clock 34" hi x 12" w x 7" d.
Westminster + Fontenoy chimes
Marked "Made in France" 43/110
Beveled glass, w/pendulum & key
As is from Paris flea market in 1962

 

[Salsagev]

Thought it would be interesting to hear a response to this thread. Thanks.

 

[agemo]

Hi,
A Fontenoy carillon 8 hammers with silence in France is sold between 60 and 100 €uros in working condition (but not revised), the market is low because there has been a large production of carillons of all kinds.

Amicalement GG

 

[Salsagev]

Thanks for the response! Does this model have 9 hammers instead of 8 to play a “Fontenoy” chime?

 

[Kevin W.]

In this condition. I dont see much value. Together and serviced i see some value to it. Would have to look at some completed auctions, as clocks dont sell for much these days.

 

[agemo]

This carillon exists with 9 hammers and the Fontenay melody, if yours has 9 hammers it plays this melody, but its value does not change, there are too many carillons for sale and their value is lower.

Amicalement GG

 

[Salsagev]

In this condition. I dont see much value. Together and serviced i see some value to it. Would have to look at some completed auctions, as clocks dont sell for much these days.

I'm always thinking these would have a decent value to the, including enjoyment, because they have unique tunes and great sounding chimes. One thing I do not understand is how are these worth peanuts but collectors would pay an upward of $150 for clocks common as dirt such as a Zaandam clock.

 

[Salsagev]

This carillon exists with 9 hammers and the Fontenay melody, if yours has 9 hammers it plays this melody, but its value does not change, there are too many carillons for sale and their value is lower.

I see. I also see uniqueness in terms of craftsmanship and all the extra features. A silence lever and a pendulum holder. $100 worths of intricate carving work (it must of took quite a long time to replicate all the carvings even if it was from a template).

I've only seen one or two up in online nationwide auction but these may be common in France.

 

[new2clocks]

I'm always thinking these would have a decent value to the, including enjoyment, because they have unique tunes and great sounding chimes.

Part of the equation is demand (or desirability, if you like) for an object. The other is supply.

Unique tunes and great sounding chimes are part of desirability, but not the total equation. Looks, age, maker, condition, etc. are also factors that determine demand.

On the supply side of the equation, as agemo says:

there are too many carillons for sale

Another common misconception is the following. Many times people ask "Is this clock rare?". It can be as rare as an uncooked steak, but if there is little demand for the clock, the price will be low.

Regards.

 

[Salsagev]

Part of the equation is demand (or desirability, if you like) for an object. The other is supply.

Unique tunes and great sounding chimes are part of desirability, but not the total equation. Looks, age, maker, condition, etc. are also factors that determine demand.

On the supply side of the equation, as agemo says:

The only place you are going to find these clocks in the states are in California or some other places with mixed cultures.

but if there is little demand for the clock, the price will be low.

Why should it be like that when it's rare? Rarity doesn't imply value, however, value does not imply rarity (Zaandam allusion again). Is it because people don't know about this or that?

 

[Kevin W.]

I have two french chime wall clocks. They were intact and in running shape when i bought them. The most i paid was 60 Can for one. And that was a few years back when clocks had more value as well.

 

[new2clocks]

The only place you are going to find these clocks in the states are in California or some other places with mixed cultures.

I do not know how you can make that statement.

But, even if your statement is accurate, my response is this shows limited demand as only people in California would want this clock as opposed to the rest of the world.

value does not imply rarity (Zaandam allusion again).

You have just provided an example of demand.

Rarity doesn't imply value,

Correct. And the reason that rarity does not imply value is because you can NOT judge value without knowing what the desirability of the object is.

Another hint in defining the value of an object is to look beyond your personal likes and dislikes. Obviously, unique tunes and great sounding chimes are very important to you. But these attributes may not be as "high on the list" for many other people. Believe it or not, many collectors prefer the sound of ticking and look at striking and chiming as undesirable.

Regards.

 

[Salsagev]

I do not know how you can make that statement.

But, even if your statement is accurate, my response is this shows limited demand as only people in California would want this clock as opposed to the rest of the world.

I you as a buyer would likely find one here as I found multiple in California or large cities. The sellers were either immigrants from other countries or a collector. I doubt much people in the states would like or want these clocks. Of course, this is just based on personal experiences and I have bought these from people unrelated to all of this.

Another hint in defining the value of an object is to look beyond your personal likes and dislikes. Obviously, unique tunes and great sounding chimes are very important to you. But these attributes may not be as "high on the list" for many other people. Believe it or not, many collectors prefer the sound of ticking and look at striking and chiming as undesirable.

Oh, definitely, these are very important to my collection. Something that sounds tinny rather than sonorous will make me irritated.

Theres actually a thing called "Hoarder's value".

If we apply all these "factors" into this clock and/or Zaandam, what can we conclude?
What makes a clock "look" good? What makes Zaandam desirable?
All the past sales of this Fontenoy clock have varied a lot.

I've seen a "trend" in prices lately. If I go after a clock (auction) I really like, I always (or try) to look for price ranges in the past. I have noticed that some clocks have sold for various values in the past 20 years. Some clocks sell for up to multiple times higher than the one that sold 5 years ago. If I graph these trends, I might conclude a "true" market value for an object.

 

[new2clocks]

doubt much people in the states would like or want these clocks.

Which, if true, supports my statement of limited demand.

What makes a clock "look" good? What makes Zaandam desirable?

I do not think there is a cookie cutter answer to this.

All the past sales of this Fontenoy clock have varied a lot.

Varied over what period? Less than a year? A year? Two Years? Twenty years?

I have noticed that some clocks have sold for various values in the past 20 years.

You may have answered my question, above.

When you speak of a large period of time, such as twenty years, there are many outside factors that will dictate demand (and supply) on a clock where all things with respect to the clock are equal. The economy and changing tastes are two big factors. Do not underestimate changing tastes.

A two year period is probably a better time frame (although with Covid, all bets are off).

Some clocks sell for up to multiple times higher than the one that sold 5 years ago.

At this point, you really should share your purpose. Is it collecting? Is is making profit? If it making profit, be aware that even with the most astute efforts, you may still lose money.

Regards.

 

[Salsagev]

Varied over what period? Less than a year? A year? Two Years? Twenty years?

Search "fontenoy clock" Here you can see the major differences in sold prices.

You may have answered my question, above.

When you speak of a large period of time, such as twenty years, there are many outside factors that will dictate demand (and supply) on a clock where all things with respect to the clock are equal. The economy and changing tastes are two big factors. Do not underestimate changing tastes.

A two year period is probably a better time frame (although with Covid, all bets are off).

Yes, I meant over a long time. (I better start a new thread on clock trends to prevent misinformation).

At this point, you really should share your purpose. Is it collecting? Is is making profit? If it making profit, be aware that even with the most astute efforts, you may still lose money.

Collecting based on my interests and trying to somehow spread information on clocks, however, I do need to recoup my funds that went into all the buying. I'm not sure how to answer if I am trying to profit or collecting because I was doing both the entire time! Trying to get a deal (to not kicking myself because I bought something triple market value) but still enjoying a clock. So basically trying to enjoy a hobby and not loosing money in the process. Please don't view me as trying to squeeze money out of these because I want a collection that I can be proud of and I can enjoy. I enjoy antique clocks and would like something a bit more "cornerstone" collection. These clocks I would not like to sell anytime because I enjoy them for years to come. I also want others to enjoy clocks and I can share out unique and unusual clocks that may interest others. As most know, there are people who truly try to squeeze every last cent out of a clock (or parts for the matter) and are very successful at it.

 

[steamer471]

I had one o these I purchased a few years back and can attest to the beauty of the clock and the sound of the chimes. Cost me $100 at an antique mall here in North Carolina. All I ever did was oil it before it was almost lost to a drunk driver crashing trough my office a month later. Let the couple who bought my house have it to sweeten the deal. Wished I hadn't now though.

 

[chimeclockfan]

These clocks were made by Fontenoy, as a French venture related to Gebr. Petersen of Germany. No surprise to see the 'Fontenoy' movement is basically the same as those made by Petersen in Germany. Easiest clue is that 'poker wheel' which drives the chime drum.
According to Hans-Heinrich Schmid's Lexicon, Walter Petersen was involved as a technical developer of clock movements at the Gebr. Petersen company of Schwenningen. He went to Paris, France in the 1930s and was co-director of the Fontenoy company. Sad and unfortunate end due to hostilities.

The Fontenoy chime uses 4 chime rods and is based on a military march of the same musical arrangement. 9 rods overall between both chimes and hour strike. Quality is typical, somewhat lower compared to Junghans HAC or Vedette. Better than a modern Hermle.
It won't be worth much unless it's in good condition and running. Certain markets will pay more for these clocks than others.

These clocks tend to turn up regularly in France, Vietnam, and Brazil where German/French box regulators are popular, but are largely unknown elsewhere. Given the rise of the global clock trade you'll find these clocks anywhere if a collector had it imported. Maybe someday we'll see a Fontenoy clock on the moon.

 

[Salsagev]

I had one o these I purchased a few years back and can attest to the beauty of the clock and the sound of the chimes. Cost me $100 at an antique mall here in North Carolina. All I ever did was oil it before it was almost lost to a drunk driver crashing trough my office a month later. Let the couple who bought my house have it to sweeten the deal. Wished I hadn't now though.

Oh no, I'm sorry that happened.

These clocks were made by Fontenoy, as a French venture related to Gebr. Petersen of Germany. No surprise to see the 'Fontenoy' movement is basically the same as those made by Petersen in Germany. Easiest clue is that 'poker wheel' which drives the chime drum.
According to Hans-Heinrich Schmid's Lexicon, Walter Petersen was involved as a technical developer of clock movements at the Gebr. Petersen company of Schwenningen. He went to Paris, France in the 1930s and was co-director of the Fontenoy company. Sad and unfortunate end due to hostilities.

Interesting history. Were they forced out due to war?

The Fontenoy chime uses 4 chime rods and is based on a military march of the same musical arrangement. 9 rods overall between both chimes and hour strike. Quality is typical, somewhat lower compared to Junghans HAC or Vedette. Better than a modern Hermle.
It won't be worth much unless it's in good condition and running. Certain markets will pay more for these clocks than others.

These clocks tend to turn up regularly in France, Vietnam, and Brazil where German/French box regulators are popular, but are largely unknown elsewhere. Given the rise of the global clock trade you'll find these clocks anywhere if a collector had it imported. Maybe someday we'll see a Fontenoy clock on the moon.

What makes the movement "typical"? I don't know if Latin America had these. I don't know why most people would not care about acoustics in these clocks.

 

[new2clocks]

Please don't view me as trying to squeeze money out of these because I want a collection that I can be proud of and I can enjoy.

My apologies if you thought I was judging your motives. I was just trying to get some clarification on your objectives.

So basically trying to enjoy a hobby and not loosing money in the process.

In my opinion, this is the best way to collect clocks!

Regards.

 

[chimeclockfan]

Hostilities = World War 2.

Typical German-style three train movements, nothing unusual in terms of quality or design. Front plate has cutouts similar to an American style movement and stamped levers. Biggest wear point was the 'poker wheel' which turns the chime drum instead of a more familiar grub gear, if this strips out you're in for a fun repair job. They're good clocks with nice chimes and cases.

 

[Salsagev]

My apologies if you thought I was judging your motives. I was just trying to get some clarification on your objectives.

Ok, I understand.

In my opinion, this is the best way to collect clocks

Yes it is!

Typical German-style three train movements, nothing unusual in terms of quality or design. Front plate has cutouts similar to an American style movement and stamped levers. Biggest wear point was the 'poker wheel' which turns the chime drum instead of a more familiar grub gear, if this strips out you're in for a fun repair job. They're good clocks with nice chimes and cases.

Ah, I see. I agree these have very nice cases. These have more carvings than Vedette.