French Crystal Regulator Info Requested

[Frank Manning]

I have a French crystal regulator that I would like some information on. The back does say "France" and on the top of the little gear that is used for adjustment it says "L. Brocot, BTE S.G.D.C." Could Brocot be the maker or could it be someone like Japy Freres? I would also like the approximate date of manufacture if possible.

Thanks, FRank

 

[harold bain]

Frank, Brocot was the inventor of the regulation device, and possibly made the device in your clock, but not the movement. Dating the clock would be just by guess, late 1800's.

 

[Frank Manning]

Thanks Harold,

I was aware of the Brocot escapement, but never saw the name listed on a clock.

I am hoping someone might be aware of the mker.

Frank

 

[pahel]

I have a French crystal regulator that I would like some information on. The back does say "France" and on the top of the little gear that is used for adjustment it says "L. Brocot, BTE S.G.D.C." Could Brocot be the maker or could it be someone like Japy Freres? I would also like the approximate date of manufacture if possible.

Thanks, FRank

Hi,
as harold bain said,Brocot was the inventor of the regulation device,
BTE SGDG reads: Breveté Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement“ which is a patent remark on this device.
I would also date this clock to the late 18th century, may be close to 1900.
Many french movements didn't have a markers stamp, however these movements were made of a similar quality to those of japy or any other famous french clock marker.

 

[Ansomnia]

Frank, the only "L. Brocot" I can match to such a clock and time period would be "Louis Brocot, Paris". He is not the famous Achille Brocot who invented the escapement of this clock but he did work in the correct period to have used such an escapement. There are no other "L. Brocot" I can locate from any other period.

Louis Brocot recorded was working on Rue Sainte Anastase in the late 19C, around 1877. He probably operated a boutique at that address and obtained his movements as blanc roulants (possibly from Japy Frères and others), adding the escapements and finishing the clocks in his own shop. This was the respected practice of the time for French makers.

Here's my personal opinion about such clocks. They were meant to look tidy and French movements from that era generally worked very well. This one has a simple architectural case similar to basic carriage clocks. IMO, it would look its best as an antique if it is kept clean... a crisp look reinforces the impression of an appreciated precious piece of machinery. OTOH, tarnish gives the impression of neglect.


Michael

 

[harold bain]

Michael, I have seen the Brocot stamp on many regulators on signed movements. I have two loose movements, one has a stamp " Prop de Brocot" the other has "modele depose". Both are signed Japy movements. The only difference between the two regulators is that one is a bit longer than the other.
I wonder how long the Brocot family had exclusive patent rights to this device, and probably made them for other manufacturers to use.
I don't think the stamping on the regulator has any bearing on who made the clock.
This site gives some interesting history of the Brocots:
http://www.nawcc69.org/pdf/Brocots_v3.pdf
Louis was the father, Louis Achille, the son. They both, along with another son, Antoine developed the regulator, with Louis patenting it. Louis was also responsible for the escapement named after the family.

 

[Ansomnia]

Michael, I have seen the Brocot stamp on many regulators on signed movements. I have two loose movements, one has a stamp " Prop de Brocot" the other has "modele depose". Both are signed Japy movements. The only difference between the two regulators is that one is a bit longer than the other.
I wonder how long the Brocot family had exclusive patent rights to this device, and probably made them for other manufacturers to use.
I don't think the stamping on the regulator has any bearing on who made the clock

Harold, you bring up an interesting comment on patents. I have no idea about the period French patents for these designs but the "Bte. SGDG" does mean it has "no govt. approval" or is unofficial. That it was applied to the part in the clock does infer the patent refers to the part.

I cannot not find any "L. Brocot" in connection with Achille Brocot but as I indicated, there was a "Louis Brocot" working in the right location, at the right time. Perhaps someone with genealogical or patent expertise can say if there is any relationship between Louis and Achille Brocot.

Another thing to check is the part itself. If Frank would take a clear photo of the part with the stamped marking, we may be able to see if there is any modification that a maker can make a patent claim on.


Michael

 

[harold bain]

Michael, see the link I edited into my previous post.

 

[Ansomnia]

Hey Harold, I just found a great link... a PDF on the Brocot family on Google. Haven't read it yet... have a look. It's actually an NAWCC reference!

Ooops. looks like we both found the same link.


Michael
-> posts merged by system <-
I'm just reading this interesting PDF.

It looks like there were 5 Brocot family members of horological interest mentioned in this file. The eldest was Louis-Gabriel who died 1872 - so I will refer all other members relative to Louis-Gabriel. Louis-Gabriel appears to have developed the rating mechanism for the Brocot escapement with two of his sons, Louis-Achille and Antoine Gabriel. The document seems to infer the patent was under Louis-Gabriel's name and not his sons', Louis-Achille.

Unfortunately, there are 4 Brocot family members highlighted in this PDF file who all have "Louis" in their names (see below for my abbreviated version of the Brocot family tree. NOTE: other Brocot family members do not show in my drawing). The 1877 date given for the Rue Ste. Anastase address rules out Louis-Gabriel because he had already died in 1872.

The nephew, Jean-Louis, was identified in the PDF account as the one who reactivated "... the patents of his grandfather and his uncle Antoine, he established a successful factory to manufacture (only) complete suspensions and replacement suspension springs".

There is no reference to a "L. Brocot, SGDG" patent in the PDF. This would make sense because the original patent happened at a time when there was only one Brocot inventor, Louis-Gabriel, the patriarch. From my own observations, for French makers, when there is only one master with a given surname, the maker's mark generally do not include a first initial. As other makers of the same surname appear, the initial is then added. I suspect the "L. Brocot, SGDG"refers to the nephew, Jean‐Louis Brocot.

The only other Brocot family member mentioned in the NAWCC PDF refers to Paul‐Louis Brocot, and he owned a Parisian shop that sold clocks amongst other things. I suspect he is the one who had the "Rue Ste. Anastase" address.

So Frank's clock was probably using Jean-Louis's mechanism. As to where it was sold, I can only conjecture that it is possible it was sold from the Rue Ste. Anastase address but depending on who actually made the clock, it could also be any maker of French crystal regulators who bought the mechanism from Jean-Louis's factory.

Harold, thanks very much for prompting our research into the background of the Brocot family. I just learned a bunch!



Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

Michael, ...I don't think the stamping on the regulator has any bearing on who made the clock.
...

Yes, you are right Harold. Thanks for making that distinction.


Michael
-> posts merged by system <-
I think I should add the following notes to fully explain my opinion that "L. Brocot" referred to Jean-Louis Brocot, and not the patriarch. According to the PDF:

"He (Jean-Louis) was issued ...(3) patents (on suspensions between 1877-1879)...His inventions were controversial​

– All were quite minor revisions of his grandfather’s and uncle’s adjustable suspension patents
– Some horologists claimed that the “improvements” weren’t, that they did not work as well as what was “improved”..."
​

I think Jean-Louis would have placed his initial on his patent to distinguish his modifications from his grandfather's original work. Although whether his improvements were significant appears to be of controversy.

Sorry I could not attach this to my earlier post due to a time-out on edits.


Michael

 

[laprade]

I used to handle quite a lot of this type of clock, and in Eire and the UK, they are often referred to as "library clocks”. They also come in "400 day" versions.
Many dealers, had the 400 swapped for a roulant! 400s were very bad sellers.

I would tend to agree with Pahel, about the date: 1900 give or take.

Someone mentioned the condition: Like carriage clocks, they should look their best, and not tarnished. Patinas are the norm on "bronze" but not on brass.

 

[David Hester]

I notice it has a "hall of shame" repair to the gathering bush.

 

[harold bain]

Michael, hard to say if the L. Brocot was in homage to the father, the originator of the regulator or one of the sons who also had Louis in their names. But I would think if it was meant to be Jean-Louis, it would have a J. to distinguish it from the others that had an L. in their names.

 

[Frank Manning]

Hi Everyone,

This item surely did get a good discussion going. I thank everyone for their information. Attached are two pictures; one of the finished clock and one of the adjustment gear with L. Brocot on it.

Thanks again, Frank

 

[Ansomnia]

Hi Everyone,

This item surely did get a good discussion going. I thank everyone for their information. Attached are two pictures; one of the finished clock and one of the adjustment gear with L. Brocot on it.

Thanks again, Frank

Thanks for the photos Frank. The clock looks very nice now and would probably show well against a darker marble or wood background.

The close-up of the adjuster and patent would be handy for someone to compare it to an earlier adjuster patented by the grandfather.


Michael

 

[Ansomnia]

Michael, hard to say if the L. Brocot was in homage to the father, the originator of the regulator or one of the sons who also had Louis in their names. But I would think if it was meant to be Jean-Louis, it would have a J. to distinguish it from the others that had an L. in their names.

The PDF states Jean-Louis reactived his grandfather's patents as well as created a few of his own based on "minor" modifications to the adjustable suspension.

If you reactivate an old patent, would it be permitted to change the name of the patent as well? None of the old Brocot patents displayed in the PDF show the "L." initial. As well, when you reactivate an old patent, you also want to take advantage of a well-known patent name. So why would Jean Louis destroy the "Brocot" patent and create 2 new patents "L. Brocot" patent and "J. Brocot"? It would be smarter to revive the venerable "Brocot" patent with a new "L. Brocot" patent with an ambiguous association.

Harold, I actually do understand your argument. And I also agree your suggestion would be logical if Jean Louis were the straightforward humble honest type. However, the impression I got from the PDF write-up was that Jean-Louis was a bit of an opportunist. Note the controversy he apparently caused. So if I'm right then it would make sense for Jean-Louis to cash in on the Louis Brocot name and legitimately create his own patent under "L. Brocot" while using the old "Brocot" patents at the same time. The 2 patents complement each other.

If Jean-Louis *really* wanted to make things honest and clear, he would have used "L-G. Brocot" (for Louis-Gabriel Brocot) and clearly assign the patent to his grandfather. Well, it looks like he didn't.


Michael

 

[harold bain]

Another little tidbit of information from that link, Jean-Louis Brocot died in 1885, and his widow sold the business to Thiebles, who continued to manufacture the regulators til 1914. This dates Frank's clock to probably 1886 or older, as Thiebles stamped their regulators (and I 've seen pendulums) with their name.