Freesprung Elgin Father Time Boxed Chronometer

Discussion in 'Chronometers' started by Kent, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,209
    1,378
    113
    Country Flag:
    23j ????????????????
     
  2. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #2 Jim Haney, Feb 17, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    Kent,
    If I knew anything about Elgins I would know more than I do now.

    21J Grade 367 Serial number 21825352 40 Hour Wind indicator. Made for the Navy and U.S.Shipping Board. U.S.S.B this has the Shipping Board Plate on the box and on the counter weight.

    Shown in Whitney's page 392
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,376
    178
    63
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    Is your Naval Father Time freesprung? That is what the type acceptable to the Navy, although they also took some with regulators.
     
  4. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    Dr. John,
    How can it be verified that it is a freesprung?
    It doesn't have a F or S on the balance cock but i don't know if the regular Father Time balance cock had that on them.
     
  5. 49stude63

    49stude63 Registered User

    Mar 21, 2009
    1,263
    15
    38
    Male
    Technical manager
    Michigan
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    The free sprung does not have a regulator like most Elgins and the shape of the balance cock is much different, looks more like an Elgin 12 size balance cock in terms of shape.
     
  6. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    I split this off the Daytona regional thread to a thread of it own.

    I will try to get some pics of the movement posted too see if it is a freesprung balance bridge and regulator.
     
  7. 49stude63

    49stude63 Registered User

    Mar 21, 2009
    1,263
    15
    38
    Male
    Technical manager
    Michigan
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  8. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,376
    178
    63
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Daytona, FL. Regional Show

    Telling whther it si freesprung is not that hard. Look at the balance spring especially its overcoil. If there are no pins that control its effective length, its freesprung. The Elgin freespung balance cock has a distinctive shape so its still good to show it.
     
  9. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #9 Jim Haney, Mar 8, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
    Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    I took it out of the gimbals and took a few pic's.

    I noticed that they had an extra long set lever installed on them to compensate for the large dial which measured 53.5 mm.

    Also, a detent stem with the detent screw in the pendant neck.

    I watched the hairspring running and in the area where regulator pins would be I couldn't hardly notice any movement. It is a very rigid 1st over coil.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. rrpktwatcher

    rrpktwatcher Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 1, 2007
    151
    1
    16
    Retired
    Northern VA, near Wash, DC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #10 rrpktwatcher, Mar 8, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Jim H - Gorgeous! . . . Are there any signs of it ever having been used?? The photos would appear as if it's Virtually Untouched with at most very little use and/or possibly not at all ?

    VERY
    :coolsign:
     
  11. Douglas Romero

    Douglas Romero Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    316
    23
    18
    Male
    Retired IT consult
    New England
    Country Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Jim, Been looking at this post with interest. Thanks for the extra pix. I bought one of these some years back, and think it is a pretty neat 18 size freesprung Elgin. I like yours also. Movement looks real clean now and guess box refinished. My serial number is 22888087 I believe. I think guys like them but usually don't like to pay as much for them like the higher prices now bringing on the gimballed Mod22s - which have risen somewhat in the last year. I was told awhile back that some guys take the 18 size FT movement out of these boxes and put it with an 18 size dial and case (gotta be tough to find the proper dial), and then they ask about 2K or more for the watch. Man, I don't like that, but it happens. I don't see that many like the ones we have, and enjoy it just as is and should be. Something about the nice locked wood case, the brass gimbals etc., the porcelain dial, and the movement, etc. that seems to just all look extra nice.

    Good pickup I'd say. Enjoy !!
     
  12. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Doug,
    I believe these are great WW1 chronometers too.I don't how many were produced and the value vs. Hamilton mass produced M22has not yet reached the market. You just don't see them for sale.
    I have been told and heard stories that Roy Ehrhardt and Manny Touring did what you describle to make a quick buck on the Freespungs.It was a crime to waste the large chronometer dials to case them in a regular 18s case.
     
  13. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 14, 2001
    5,376
    178
    63
    Aerospace Engineer
    New Hampshire
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    I agree these were great WW I torpedo boat watches. For some reason, Whitney gave them a very mild write up in his book, but he gushed all over the Hamilton 36 size which to me seems a lesser watch. Hamilton 36's go for a lot more. I do not understand this and think the free sprung Elgin Father Times are wonderful.

    It's hard to figure how many of these free sprung Elgins were were made because they do not seem to have been broken out in the run records.

    It has been a mystery to me why Elgin used the Father Time grade for these instead of the BW Raymond or Veritas. On the other hand, the written descriptions of these three grade were identical, but they were priced differently.
     
  14. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,276
    121
    63
    Country Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    I have seen Grade 412 used also as US Navy deck watches, but if I remember correctly not freesprung.
     
  15. Brad Maisto

    Brad Maisto Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 1, 2000
    685
    117
    43
    Male
    Chemist - Retired
    Grandview, IN
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Gentleman,
    I have one of these gimbaled free-sprung Father Time chonometers with serial number 21,869,689 and inside my wood case is a repair label from the "Northwest Instrument Co." out of Seattle, Washington and has written on it: Repaired and Cleaned, Oct. 1943. My wooden case is not nearly as shiny as the pictures previously posted, but in good condition. I puuchased mine at the Drawbridge Regional back in 1999 from a Bill Payne out of Owensboro, KY.
    As an aside, there was an article written in the November 2009 Elgin Historical Society's Crackerbarrel newsletter and it was titled: Admiral Byrd Chronometer. It went on to say: The Admiral Nimitz Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg, Texas has loaned us the Elgin chronometer used by Admiral Byrd on his 1912 trip to the South Pole. In 1912, the watch factory provided six Elgin chronometers to the expedition; three were later returned to the company observatory (now part of school district U-46 [my gym uniforms back in the 1960's has "U-46" on the t-shirt)] . The observatory director donated a chronometer to the Admiral Nimitz Museum in the early 1960s. The chronometer will be part of the exhibit in honor of the Observatory centennial, opening in March 2010."
    So now I tell everyone I show my chonometer to that it has been to the South Pole with Admiral Byrd.
    Brad Maisto, Indiana Chapter 18 President
     
  16. Brad Maisto

    Brad Maisto Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 1, 2000
    685
    117
    43
    Male
    Chemist - Retired
    Grandview, IN
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    I thought for sure my post above would draw a little more criticism than it has (NONE to this Point), so I will post again asking anyone out there who has one of these Elgin Father TIme boxed chronometers if they would please report their serial numbers of their Free-Sprung Father Time movements? So far, there are three serial numbers from significantly separate runs ! I would like to see this thread stay relevant and capture some additional information, unless Kent Singer already has this information stored somewhere?
    Thanks for Listening, Brad Maisto, Indiana Chapter 18 President
     
  17. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,150
    732
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Brad,

    Did you recieve my PM to you about the dates of your serial numbers?
     
  18. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 2, 2012
    1,435
    458
    83
    Male
    Scientist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    So, how are they regulated? There doesn't seem to be any mechanism to change the moment of inertia of the balance, so unless there's something to change the length of the spring, how do you adjust the rate?
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    By adjusting the mean-time screws in the balance rim. They're the ones at the ends of the spokes.
     
  20. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 2, 2012
    1,435
    458
    83
    Male
    Scientist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Ah! I swear I looked for meantime screws and didn't see any screws that weren't tightened down to the rim, but now that I look again, they're obvious. The threaded part is longer and appears to be steel, too. I gotta get my eyes checked!
     
  21. Brad Maisto

    Brad Maisto Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 1, 2000
    685
    117
    43
    Male
    Chemist - Retired
    Grandview, IN
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    Jim,
    I did send you a PM, hope you received it? And for a comment to GeneJockey, a special thanks to your blog site explaining the balance staff replacement operation. I hope to try this soon as I believe I have the necessary staking set tools to try this again, but will start with a non-descript 7-jewel Elgin before I try to mess up another high grade watch. I have a Waltham 21-jewel model 1892 18S movement that needs the staff replaced. I still find it amazing the skill that was required to replace these tiny parts without the aide of high resolution microscopy, and simple hand-held micometers.
    Thanks Again, Brad Maisto
     
  22. M. Cross

    M. Cross Registered User

    Nov 18, 2002
    386
    0
    0
    Distance Education
    Tennessee
    Region Flag:
    Re: Elgin Freesprung Boxed chronometer

    I'm sure this has already been mentioned (I didn't see it, though) according to the excellent railroad watch article in the NAWCC journal several years back regarding the Father Time Elgin, these were supposedly made from left over FT Model 367's.
    Regards! Mark
     
  23. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,209
    1,378
    113
    Country Flag:
    Having just re-read "Railroaders' Corner - The Watch That Gets Forgotten: Elgin's Father Time," Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer, NAWCC Bulletin, No. 348 (February 2004), pp. 63-72 (available online to NAWCC members), I can confirm what I initially thought aster reading Mark's post, specifically: The vast majority of these watches were purpose-built.

    In the article, we stated it this way: "A few surviving watches from earlier production runs, ending in 1910, are set up this way, and then five runs were produced starting in 1918 and spilling over to 1919."

    In that article, and in others, we've made a point of stating that the availability of movements extended for quite some time after the dates shown in various serial number vs. date tables. More to the point, a number of the 18-szie, "Veritas model" movement grades offered on page E-2 of the Oskamp-Nolting Co. Great American Jewelry Catalog 1917 were supposedly made in 1910-1912 going by the serial numbers of surviving examples and dates in those tables. So the concept of surviving watches from earlier runs isn't all that meaningful in this context. Ed and I should have stated it better at the time.
     
  24. Brad Maisto

    Brad Maisto Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 1, 2000
    685
    117
    43
    Male
    Chemist - Retired
    Grandview, IN
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    AFBBE68F-3DB7-470A-906E-8807D19CBB2A.jpeg 69871FF0-4F51-40B3-8A7A-A8980CE575B3.jpeg 40BEE133-CFBC-4801-97C7-D415F48B4CC9.jpeg
    I took a few pictures of my gimbaled free-sprung Father Time that I have had for 20 years come this April! Again, my serial number is 21,869,689.
    Thanks, Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary
    P. S. Our upcoming Chapter 44 meeting has been moved to March 23, 2019 at 10:00 am at Settle Memorial UMC in Owensboro, KY.
     
    GeneJockey and musicguy like this.

Share This Page