19th c Frederick Dent 18ct gold Open Face Pocket Watch

[craigpf]

Hi wondering if any one can help with any information regarding possible valuation or other information that might relate to this Frederick Dent 18ct gold Open Face Pocket Watch

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hello,

The movement is a Swiss Lepine calibre with cylinder escapement. Although they can be very reliable and keep good time, they are not highly regarded by movement collectors.

The case and the dial are quite decorative and may appeal to collectors, whos focus is rather not on movements.

Valuation is difficult, it depends on finding the "right" person for the watch. The market value may be in a range between case material value + a few hundred Euro, if any, to something well in a four figure range, if e.g. offered by a pro in appealing environment and with story telling talent.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Incroyable]

Was the "Examined by Frederick Dent" a marketing ploy to capitalize on the prestige of English watches?

 

[Bernhard J.]

Yes, quite common, often found on clocks, in particular imported carriage clocks, also.

I have found a nearly identical watch, including the "Examined by F. Dent" inscription, being offered for 2,250 Euro. Since quite a while, the vendor being open to offers. This might provide a realistic upper limit.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Incroyable]

I wonder if Frederick Dent actually examined these or was it an early use of name licensing?

 

[Bernhard J.]

He perhaps had a brief look at the watches coming in, would perhaps qualify for "Examined".

 

[gmorse]

Hi Craig, and welcome to the forum,

The name 'Frederick Dent' was in use between 1853 and 1861, from the address on your watch. (See the Dent website).

However, whilst the name and address are correct, I wonder whether an old-established and superior London firm like Dents would have been in the business of importing Swiss watches like this when they were at the very top of the watch business in the UK.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Like Graham I doubt if this watch every passed through the premises of Dent.

I understand that although Frederick Dent died in 1860, his name continued to be used at both the 61 Strand address and also 34/36 Royal Exchange until 1864 and is listed as such in a directory of 1863. The standard reference for Dent is

Vaudrey Mercer, 1977 'Edward John Dent and his Successors', The Antiquarian Horological Society.

John

 

[Audemars]

I have a list of watches and movements imported from various Swiss companies by the Louis Audemars London "depot", and sold to "F Dent". Admittedly it is dated early 1880s (1881-3, I think)
Paul

 

[John Matthews]

Paul - if the list is not too long could you identify the Swiss companies please.

John

 

[Bernhard J.]

However, whilst the name and address are correct, I wonder whether an old-established and superior London firm like Dents would have been in the business of importing Swiss watches like this when they were at the very top of the watch business in the UK.

Well, I personally would not wonder about this, since various famous names were used within a whole range of different qualities. Just think of Russell, Smith, Frodsham, Benson, and others (somewhat later). From the super high end to the cheap mass product.

I suppose that the money was earned mainly with the mass products, back then also. So why not use the name for substantially increasing the profit for such mass products (speaking of the movement, not of the case)?

I do not know, but since long have observed famous names in context with rather inferior movements. I in turn wonder, whether these all are indeed fakes? Looking at the case, I would suppose not.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[John Matthews]

Bernard - you are certainly correct that the company Dent sold Swiss watches.

However, the ones that I have seen that I have thought to be genuine, are generally later than 1864 when the name Frederick Dent ceased to be used. They are higher quality movements and most I have observed often Swiss levers in English silver cases. I may be mistaken, and are happy to be proved wrong, but a low quality cylinder escapement in a case purporting to be 18K (certainly not English), despite the ornate design, is not something I can see Dent retailing in the mid C19th.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

...the ones that I have seen that I have thought to be genuine, are generally later than 1864 when the name Frederick Dent ceased to be used.

This was my thinking as well, especially around the dates.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Audemars]

Paul - if the list is not too long could you identify the Swiss companies please.

Courvoisier Frères,
Matthey-Doret,
Clemence Frères,
Bonhofer Frères,
Antoine Frères,
Calame-Robert,
Jaccard du Gros,
Tripplin,

There are slightly over 400 entries, all dated 1881-83 (there is one dated 1885, but that may be a transcription error). The majority are from Courvoisier Frères and Calame-Robert. I can send you the .xls spreadsheet file if you like, as a PM. I don't know if I can post a spreadsheet here. Paul

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

Yes, you can post a spreadsheet as an attachment, either here on the forum or in a conversation.

Regards,

Graham

 

[zedric]

It would be interesting to know in what period Frederick Dent signed clocks and watches under his own name (if at all). Fred and Richard Dent (née Rippon) were stepsons of the more famous Edward John Dent, and I had thought they only took the name Dent when they took over the business from Edward, but the business seems to always have been in the enamel of E Dent (and Co).

Of course Dent famously put out advertisements warning engravers not to use the Dent name on watches that were not of their manufacture, and eventually took out a trademark.

 

[Audemars]

Yes, you can post a spreadsheet as an attachment, either here on the forum or in a conversation.

There is a ledger (my # 5) dealing exclusively with pieces "sourced" (to use a modern expression) by the LA London "depot" from factories other than their own establishment in Le Brassus, for resale. I have done various analyses in the last few years. This is the one dealing with items sold to "F.Dent". It is in serial number order, but feel free to manipulate it any way you like.

I hope this works.........

Paul

 

[Audemars]

Assuming that worked, there is no reason for not posting the whole book analysis.
It is in page (39 of them) order. I hope it's of interest.
Paul

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

Yes, that worked, a most interesting list of over 400 watches invoiced to F. Dent. Some research to be done here!

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Paul - many thanks for sharing this information. It is appreciated.

John

 

[Audemars]

Some research to be done here!

Well, it was peripheral to my main interests, but a few years ago I broke it down in several different ways , for "fun" (before I had to concentrate more fully on the housework and the gardening), by customer, by supplier &c. I also winkled out the Frodsham deals, and a couple of others.

Paul

 

[craigpf]

Thank you to everyone. Everyone in this forum is so knowledgable and helpful it is much appreciated have a great evening or day where ever you are. Thanks again Craig