Forestville Manufacturing Company, 8 day OG

[Jim D.]

I found an 8 day weight driven OG yesterday that I am considering. I was in a rush so did not look at it very close but did notice that the movement was marked "Forestville Manufaturing Company" and Bristol Conn. It has what is left of the label but could not read it in the bad lighting, will take a flash light today! The tablet looked original and in nice shape. It appeared all original but the hands were missing.

Is there anything I should be looking for in particular on the label to help date this clock? It apeared the case was in good condition. Are these a hard item to find in good condition?

Jim D.

 

[tymfxr]

Jim, the clock was probably made from mid 1840s to mid 1850s.
Mike C.

 

[Bob Reichel]

Foresville Mfg. Co. was one of J.C.Brown's companies. He had at times several silent partners, ie: E.N.Welch. Brown was a wonderful mechanic, but a poor businessman. Note his several bankrupsies. There is lots written about Brown. His home still exists across the street from the American Clock and Watch Museum in Bristol, Conn. There is quite a bit on him in my book: "The E.N.Welch Story". Copies available from the NAWCC Library.
Brown's clocks and movements are well made and if care has been temded, they are beautiful specimens. OG's are very collectible to the few who love them. The 8-day OG's are rarer than the 30 hour ones.

 

[Jim D.]

What I have found is that the name Forestville Manufacturing Company started being used in 1835. This was continued fairly steady thru 1856 when E. N. Welch took over. From 1847 to 1856 J. C. Brown often had his name on the label also. He did have many partners but it seems the name pretty much remained the same.

I am sure there were changes to the label thru these periods though. Going to look at the clock again shortly.

Jim D.

 

[harold bain]

Jim, if you can see who the label printer was, it may help date the clock.

 

[clockdaddy]

Bob,

Aren't you a Tennessee boy these days If you're in Tennessee, be proud, be a Hilltopper or a Volunteer but don't keep showing you're from Wa. in your profile!! People will look at ya funny, like you're weird or something if they know your from "out there"!!!

Just kiddin', of course!! Buuttttt...change it, boy!!

CD

 

[Jim D.]

Well, I no longer have to leave the huse to look at this clock, it is running downstairs on the mantle for now.


On the dial it is marked "Forestville Manufacturing Company" Bristol, Conn U.S.A." all in script.

On the label:

A picture of a factory with "Forestville Manufacturing Company" printed across the building. Below that and to the left is a man and 2 women standing, to the right is a man walking. On th bottom right of the picture is printed "STRONG, NY". Would this be the printer?

Below this and centered in the case is a picture of an OG clock.

Below the clock picture is:
"Patented Eight Day Brass Clocks"
"Made and sold by"
"Forestville Manufacturing Company"
Below this is the directions for the clock.

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-1.JPG

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-3.JPG

Hopefully this will help narrow the date down a little.

Jim D.

 

[Jim D.]

Here are two more photos of this clock.

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-4.JPG

This last photo is of the dial. It has me a little confused. Everything appears to be original but the gong has been moved and it looks like an alarm may have been removed from the case. Would the extra hole in the dial have been for an alarm?

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-2.JPG

Thanks for everyone feedback, it is always appreciated!

Jim D.

 

[ClockJim]

Jim D.

A good looking clock. Case, Tablet, Dial and Movement are all nice. I know nothing about Forestville OG’s .. But I think it is a safe bet that the clock had an alarm movement at one time, based on the dial hole for the winding arbor and the dial hole for the alarm setting ring.

I don’t see where an alarm mechanism was part of the movement. But, as I have stated, I do not have an OG with alarm movement of this type myself.

It may be possible the case and movement may not have been a from the factory original match. Or the dial was a later addition?

I’m sure we will be hearing from those who are more knowledgeable about the clock and movement.

Whatever the case, it is a good-looking clock.

 

[Jim D.]

ClockJim,

You could be right and hopefully the experts will jump in here. If not I may make this a seperate post to try and get their attention because I really would like to know!

The extra hole in the dial lines up with a hole in the movement plates but it is not being used. If you look close at the movement photo you can see it. Having never seen a movement from Forestville Manufacturing I can not be sure but it would make sense. If that is the case I really doubt if I could ever find the parts needed to add one but tou never know.

Jim D.

Jim D.

I don’t see where an alarm mechanism was part of the movement. But, as I have stated, I do not have an OG with alarm movement of this type myself.

It may be possible the case and movement may not have been a from the factory original match. Or the dial was a later addition?

I’m sure we will be hearing from those who are more knowledgeable about the clock and movement.

Whatever the case, it is a good-looking clock.

 

[Bob Reichel]

I am very suspicious of the third hole in the dial. There is no picture of the movement, so it might not be a JCB movement. There are internal alarm movements out there, but there is no mention of one in Ken Roberts & Snowden Taylor's book: "Jonathan Clark Brown and the Forestville Manufacturing Company". Copies could be available from the Library at Columbia, PA.

OK, now I see the movement picture. My comments regarding the dial still stand.

 

[harold bain]

Robert, the book you mentioned does show an alarm movement in an OG on page 30. It is a 30 hour movement. But since the 30 hour movement could not have fit this dial, I wonder if there was an 8 day movement with alarm. If you look close at this movement, it looks like the hole for the alarm wind arbor has been plugged.
The name you give for possibly the printer is not one I am familiar with, nor is it listed in this book.

 

[ClockJim]

Is this forensic Horological?

Four more observations:

1) The hole in the dial allowing for access to the alarm setting ring, appears to have been cut through the manufacturer’s name on the dial. Poor planning by Forestville’s part?

2) There is a hole in the top movement plate that could align with the additional winding arbor hole in the dial. ?

3) I see no indication of any linkage/lever on the movement in the area of the shaft/cannon for an alarm setting ring and mechanism.

4) The movement is screwed to the mounting board. Most of my older style OG’s are held to the board with “J” hooks.

No conclusions… just observations.

Added point #5
The movement appears to be manufactured stamped as a Forestville.

 

[harold bain]

Jim, that type of movement mounting with screws is unique and typical of JC Brown 8 day movements. I have an Empire style with this movement.
Another observation is that none of the movements in my book show the "third leg" at the bottom of the front plate of the movement. Nor does the one in my clock. Other than this extra appendage, the movements appear to be the same as this one. So, I would say this was originally equipped with an alarm, which has been removed, unfortunately. Could have been quite rare.

 

[DBPhelps]

Here is a similar clock by Forestville Mfg with the alarm. If you notice, the point on the back of the hour hand indicates the time of the alarm trip.

 

[ClockJim]

DBPhelps,

Yours looks like a sister to Jim D's

Both have great cases and dials. Too bad the alarm is missing from Jim D's.

Thanks fo the info in the movement mounting. Guess I need to get a Forestville to keep up.

 

[Paul H]

Jim D;

If you look closely at the label towards the bottom, the earlier Forestville clocks will list the primary principles of the company IE J Brown, C. Pomeroy, G. Hill etc etc. These names help date the early clocks.

Paul

 

[Jim D.]

I went searching thru the web site with the Antique Clocks Price Guide. They have quite a few FNC clock shown and some of the 30 hours have alarms bult into the movements. I found an 8 day showing the movement and as Harold points out it is exactly the same except for the third leg. It is mounted in the same manor. In fact the mounting board is also the same.

I will try to get a better photo of this movement tomarrow showing more detail. Right now it appears it had an alarm at one time but it is missing. Its a shame but I like it just the same!

Jim D.

Jim, that type of movement mounting with screws is unique and typical of JC Brown 8 day movements. I have an Empire style with this movement.
Another observation is that none of the movements in my book show the "third leg" at the bottom of the front plate of the movement. Nor does the one in my clock. Other than this extra appendage, the movements appear to be the same as this one. So, I would say this was originally equipped with an alarm, which has been removed, unfortunately. Could have been quite rare.

 

[Jim D.]

I will try to read it tomarrow during the day and if I find anything I will post it.

Thanks,

Jim D.

Jim D;

If you look closely at the label towards the bottom, the earlier Forestville clocks will list the primary principles of the company IE J Brown, C. Pomeroy, G. Hill etc etc. These names help date the early clocks.

Paul

 

[Sooth]

Hi, awesome clock, can I request a nice, clear shot of the tablet?

 

[Jim D.]

I see no reason why not. Will try to ge one tomarrow.

Jim D.

Hi, awesome clock, can I request a nice, clear shot of the tablet?

 

[Bruce Barnes]

After readig this informative thread,I checked with a friend in Glendora , Ca. and they have the T & S model clock,8day, (OG),JCBrown etc and I checked the label and the label was made by the:

Calhoun Steam Printing Co.........Hartford Conn.

Is this any indicator of date,or perhaps just one of the various label companies that might have been available?
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[harold bain]

Hi, Bruce. I can narrow it down to 1854-1855, according to Roberts and Taylor's JC Brown book.

 

[Jim D.]

I really want to thank everyone for their help and interest in this clock. Thanks to you I have learned quite a bit about it!

I did manage to make out two names on the bottom of the label. These are "S B SMITH" and most of "C GOODRICH". Accorfing to my records this really narrows the dating of this clock to 1845-1847. They were partners with J C Brown and E N Welch during these years and the name FMC was often used during this time.

I have included better photos of the movement. You can see two holes in the third leg on the front plate. These holse are also on the back plate. The name on the movement is stamped as follows:

FORESTVILLE M.F.G.Co
BRISTOL Ct
U.S.A.

Jim D.

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-5.JPG

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-6.JPG

 

[Jim D.]

Sooth, You asked for a better photo of the tablet. This is the best I could do. Most of these I have seen have a black background painted on but this on does not. I used a black paper behind the tablet to try and get more detail.

Jim D.

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-7.JPG

Hi, awesome clock, can I request a nice, clear shot of the tablet?

 

[Sooth]

Thanks!

 

[Bruce Barnes]

Hi Harold,
Thanks for your help I am sure my friends will be pleased.
This clock also has it's original weights,but they switched out one weight because the one made it "strike too fast".Is there an appreciable difference in the two weights,one that would be evident if weighed so as to return the weights to the proper train?
Also did the clock maunfacturers randomly use label printers or did they set up a "sub-contract" type of arrangement?
Regards,
Bruce

 

[harold bain]

Bruce, regarding the labels, the manufacturers switched around enough that I think it may have been whoever was cheaper or less busy got the job. Or may have been bid on to supply them. There likely wasn't nearly as many printers set up for work like this as there would be now. My Forestville does not have original weights, so I can't say for sure what may be correct for your clock.

 

[Jim D.]

Bruce,

My clock has the original weights and it strikes very fast also. One weight is hollowed out a little on the bottom to make it lighter but apparently not enough. I will pull the weights and measure and weigh them later today for you.

Jim D.

This clock also has it's original weights,but they switched out one weight because the one made it "strike too fast".

 

[Bruce Barnes]

Thanks Harold & Jim good info..........

Harold did you fix the date by the name of the label printer or some other info found in the book?

Jim,I wonder if all of these clocks struck fast or if the "Fly" may be loose?Looking forward to your weight information,these weights are rectangular and are a little narrower on the top.

Regards,
Bruce

 

[ClockJim]

Thanks for your initial posting Jim D,

This continues to be an interesting and informative post/thread.

I have heard both stories about the differences in the weight between the time and the strike side. One Old Sage maintained there is not significant weight difference between the two, only what would be normal variation during foundry production. Another Clock Guru says the strike side should/was lighter.

To the best of my knowledge all of my 8-day weights (column & cornice and OG style) have the same general shape rectangular shape with no obvious weight difference. Visually and in handling, I can’t tell the difference. I’ve never weighed them. I just may do that tonight.

When I have played around with my first weigh driven movements I switched them, and didn’t notice any obvious change in the strike speed. But, have a loose fit on the “fly” and the strike races so fast you can’t count the strikes on anything past 6.

I wait with interest for other’s comments.

 

[harold bain]

Bruce, yes it was from the book. It lists Calhoun Brothers Steam Press 26 State St. as 1853, and Calhoun Steam Printers 26 & 28 State St. as 1854-55. Somewhere there should be a list of printers, with their addresses, and dates they were in business, but I'm not sure where I saw this.
Harold

 

[Bruce Barnes]

Thanks again Harold,What an excellent way to "narrow" dates,especially when the printer is listed on the label.
Regards,
Bruce

 

[Sooth]

The weights on the majority of 8 day weight driven, american brass clocks range between 7 and 8 1/2 lbs.

Normally they are both close to 7 3/4 - 8 lbs each.

If one weight is lighter, it's usually used on the strike side.

 

[Jim D.]

I have photoed the weights and am posting them here for all to see. I was a little surprised at what I found!

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-8.JPG

http://jdscrafts.com/clocks/Forestville-9.JPG

Both are about the same size but did come from different molds. They are about 3" X 1 7/8" on top, 3 1/2" X 2 1/8" on bottom and 5 1/4" tall. Yhe weight on the left is slightly hollowed out on the bottom making it the lighter weight, right? I was wrong! The hollowed out weight weighs 8 pounds 10 ounces and the flat bottom weighs 8 pounds 9.2 ounces. Not much difference but I had them on the clock wrong.

I also noticed something else now that I have weighed them. The one weight shown on the left is the heaver one and is marked with a raised rib. You can see it in the top photo. I am going to make a guess here. Does that indicate it should go to the right side of the clock which is the time side, putting the slightly lighter weight on the strike side.

Jim D.

 

[Jim D.]

This one has been my pleasure! I am learning quite a bit on this post and hope others will jump in with more information as it goes on.

Thanks for your initial posting Jim D,

Jim,

If you have time please do weigh them. My other OG is a 30 hour with noticable differences in the weights, both size and weight. If I switch them it makes a BIG difference!

Jim D.

To the best of my knowledge all of my 8-day weights (column & cornice and OG style) have the same general shape rectangular shape with no obvious weight difference. Visually and in handling, I can’t tell the difference. I’ve never weighed them. I just may do that tonight.

 

[Sooth]

Jim,

With SO little difference in weight, you can have the weights on either side. It would have to be at least 1/4 lb difference for one to be "heavier".

As for that line, it's just a defect. Try to remember that these weights were mass produced. The cast iron is cast into sand molds, so if there was any bump on the edge of the sand, it would result in a defect.

As for the "hollow" this is just caused by how the metal cooled, and "shrank". Same as if you were to freeze water in a glass, or make candles in molds.

I also doubt that they measured out the metal EXACTLY for these weights. From what I can tell, they made them quickly, and none are extremely accurate.

Most of these clocks are overpowered in the first place as well.

 

[Joseph Bautsch]

Jim D. - Really nice clock. To add a little more to its dating I have a Smith and Goodrich 30 hr OG. The books I have indicate these gentlemen were in business for them selves from 1847 to 1852. That would make your dating of 1845 to 1847 for your clock accurate.

My clock also has a between the plates alarm. I was fortunate in that the only thing missing was the alarm verge and arbor. I was able to manufacture the missing part and now it is operational. I would think that with more research on the missing parts for this clock you could restore it as well. From what I see of the clock it would be worth the effort.

 

[Jim D.]

Joseph,

Would you mind posting a photo or two of this movement? I realize it will be different being a 30 hour but will help me get an idea of what it is I am looking for.

Would also love to see the clock!

Jim D.

My clock also has a between the plates alarm. I was fortunate in that the only thing missing was the alarm verge and arbor. I was able to manufacture the missing part and now it is operational. I would think that with more research on the missing parts for this clock you could restore it as well. From what I see of the clock it would be worth the effort.

 

[ClockJim]

As an ex-foundry-man, I completely agree with sooth on his evaluation of the casting process when these weights were made.

There was nothing that scientific in a metal foundry back then (to some extent it still holds true even now) that would have maintained any weight consistency during production. The variation found is just normal for the rough iron weight product being manufactured.

Next:
I was shoveling 18” of snow last night. Perhaps tonight I’ll try weighing some weights.

 

[harold bain]

Hey, Jim, how much does 18" of snow weigh? We're just getting our dose of winter today. So far, I think we have about 3 inches

 

[ClockJim]

Harold,

I'll have to get back to you on that.

Let's see... the driveway 410 feet in length x 14 feet wide with 18" depth of snow....

As soon as my back feel better I'll let you know.

Luckily, a retired neighbor with a snow plow helped me finish the job.

 

[Joseph Bautsch]

Jim D. - At the moment the case is in Pisces undergoing restoration. The works are also disassembled waiting on a bushing that is on back order with Time Saver. I'll get pictures of the alarm parts and reassemble the works for a picture as well. One thing I did note is that your work does not have a pivot point on the front plate for the flat brass strip lever that acts as a release for the alarm set wheel on the hour pipe. In its place your works may have had a wire coming off the alarm verge arbor going directly to the alarm set wheel. I've seen that set up before. Give me a couple of days and I'll send the pictures.

 

[Jim D.]

Joseph,

That would be great, it will at least be a starting place. No rush, this clock is not going anywhere for a while. Once I am gone who knows......... but I plan on sticking around being miserable for a while!

Jim D.

Jim D. - At the moment the case is in Pisces undergoing restoration. The works are also disassembled waiting on a bushing that is on back order with Time Saver. I'll get pictures of the alarm parts and reassemble the works for a picture as well. One thing I did note is that your work does not have a pivot point on the front plate for the flat brass strip lever that acts as a release for the alarm set wheel on the hour pipe. In its place your works may have had a wire coming off the alarm verge arbor going directly to the alarm set wheel. I've seen that set up before. Give me a couple of days and I'll send the pictures.

 

[Joseph Bautsch]

Jim D. - Attached are the photos of the alarm set up on my Smith & Goodrich. Hope this helps. I think the difference is in the brass release arm that is rivited to the center columb just under the hour pipe. The photos of your works do not indicate that it had a release arm of this type. What I have seen is the wire that comes up toward the setting wheel from the alarm verge arbor go right up to the wheel to be the release.

 

[Jim D.]

Joseph,

Thank you for the photos and the information. I now have an idea of how it would have been set up. Now the hunt begins!

Jim D.

 

[ClocksCollector]

I have a weight clock with a label that has THE FORESTVILLE CLOCK COMPANY printed on it. Is this a J C Brown clock company and was the clock made before or after those made by THE FORESTVILLE MANUFACTURING COMPANY?

 

[harold bain]

CC, these clocks with the Forestville Clock Company label were made after the bankruptcy of the Forestville Manufactring Company for a short period before EN Welch took over the plant, about 1856 to 1858. JC brown would have been involved in their manufacture. I have an OG with one of these labels.

 

[ClocksCollector]

Thanks for the info Harold!!

 

[RJSoftware]

Jim D;

One consideration to slow the strike would be to stiffen/tighten the hammer spring. Adding more tension slows down the strike process to more apreciative degree and allows you to use original weights.

RJ