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First wheel problem

clockman230@comcast.net

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The wheel on the arbor of the first wheel has become loose. What is the best way to attach the wheel to the arbor ?
 

sjaffe

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The original design is a press fit, possibly staked. I have successfully completed this repair using a Loctite product. Either should work.
Stan
 

shutterbug

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I think we need to know what movement you're dealing with, clockman. Some pictures of the wheel would help a lot too!
 

Willie X

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Normally the wheel is held to the hub with a cupped washer which is staked to a light friction fit between the wheel and the hub. If the wheel is floppy all you need to do is increase the old staking slightly. Make a staking punch that matches the old marks. Support the hub on an anvil with the proper size hole. Do one light tap on each point (usually there are 4). Repeat as necessary until you get a little friction and no wobble.
Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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Normally the wheel is held to the hub with a cupped washer which is staked to a light friction fit between the wheel and the hub. If the wheel is floppy all you need to do is increase the old staking slightly. Make a staking punch that matches the old marks. Support the hub on an anvil with the proper size hole. Do one light tap on each point (usually there are 4). Repeat as necessary until you get a little friction and no wobble.
Willie X
Lets be clear what the problem is. If the wheel is wobbly and loose on the hub, do what Willie said and positively DO NOT USE LOCTITE or you will never be able to wind the clock. If the brass hub is loose on the steel arbor then we really need to see the part to determine how the hub was originally attached. Some (E. Ingraham for example) use a pin that can shear off. Others press the hub onto a spline.

RC
 

clockman230@comcast.net

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Thanks for all suggestions. This is a 400 day clock. Staking seems like the way to go. I do not know how to post pictures; however, the wheel is pressed on to the arbor with @ 10 spokes on the outside of the wheel. I have several degrees of wobble on the arbor. Explain the staking technique, please.
 

shutterbug

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To post pictures, use the white camera icon in the reply box.
 

R. Croswell

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Thanks for all suggestions. This is a 400 day clock. Staking seems like the way to go. I do not know how to post pictures; however, the wheel is pressed on to the arbor with @ 10 spokes on the outside of the wheel. I have several degrees of wobble on the arbor. Explain the staking technique, please.
I'm afraid that we (at least me) don't understand just what you are describing. I've never seen a 400-day clock with a wheel that has 10 spokes, or spokes "on the outside of the wheel"? The first wheel (sometimes called the 'great wheel') is the wheel (gear) with no spokes that has the barrel that contains the main spring and winding arbor. That wheel drives the pinion (small gear) that's on the arbor (axle) that has the second wheel (large gear that usually has 4 spokes). The pinions are the small (usually steel) 'gears' that are made as part of the arbor (axle). The "wheels" are the larger brass gears. The train of wheels and pinions ends at the top of the movement with the 'escape wheel' which is the smaller brass wheel with teeth that have a distinctively different shape.


If you have an arbor that is wobbling ["I have several degrees of wobble on the arbor"] then you likely have a worn pivot hole (unlikely on a 400-day clock), or a broken pivot. If a wheel (the brass gear) is loose on the arbor we need to look into what caused this as well as how to repair it. If this is perhaps the 'second wheel', these cam sometimes be damaged when a spring busts or is suddenly released. In these clocks the brass wheels are usually pressed onto a turned down section of the pinion that acts like a spline. If that's where the wheel is loose, be aware that the pinion and spline may be hardened and attempting to stake it may only chip it. Before discussing how to fix this problem we need to be sure just what it is that we need to fix.

Regarding posting pictures, first take pictures close up of the parts as well as a couple that show the complete movement. Make sure the pictures are sharp which is best achieved when one has good light. Transfer the pictures to your computer. There are two ways to get the pictures in your post here. One is "use the white camera icon in the reply box", two is click the 'Go Advanced' button, then click manage attachments, then follow the somewhat confusing directions to select and upload all the pictures as a batch. I find the second way the easiest once one learns it.

RC
 

Willie X

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Forget the staking and follow RC's instruction. I have never seen a loose 1st wheel on a 400 day clock.
The first wheel contains the spring. Maybe you are speaking of the 2nd wheel?
Willie X
 

THTanner

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Are you, perhaps, referring to the ratchet that has the click on the outside of the drum that has the winding arbor?

Thanks for all suggestions. This is a 400 day clock. Staking seems like the way to go. I do not know how to post pictures; however, the wheel is pressed on to the arbor with @ 10 spokes on the outside of the wheel. I have several degrees of wobble on the arbor. Explain the staking technique, please.
 

roughbarked

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Are you, perhaps, referring to the ratchet that has the click on the outside of the drum that has the winding arbor?
Sounds likely. This is usually a visible loose screw and cock, however.
Some have the click wheel inside the plate but I can't see it coming loose there.

Anyway, if the square is sloppy, though it can be temporarily fixed, this is a dangerous part of the clock to make mistakes in. If a ratchet wheel or click wheel, these are inexpensive fixes for something that could cost a whole lot more.
 

THTanner

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And I am wondering if the cock has been removed and it simply seems loose? Pictures will help, but I think most of these have 10 teeth?

Sounds likely. This is usually a visible loose screw and cock, however.
Some have the click wheel inside the plate but I can't see it coming loose there.

Anyway, if the square is sloppy, though it can be temporarily fixed, this is a dangerous part of the clock to make mistakes in. If a ratchet wheel or click wheel, these are inexpensive fixes for something that could cost a whole lot more.
 

R. Croswell

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You sent a PM basically asking why I said do not use Loctite or the clock could not be wound. All my attempts to reply to the PM seem to return a "data base error". There being nothing really 'private' about my reply I will post it here. Perhaps others will benefit or even suggest how they might have done this repair now that we are clear what the problem was.

Your original question was; "The wheel on the arbor of the first wheel (emphasis added) has become loose. What is the best way to attach the wheel to the arbor ?". You did not mention that you had a 400-day clock which has the first wheel made as part of the spring barrel that cannot come loose, so we all assumed that this was not the type of clock we were dealing with. Clocks that have open springs, like most American clocks do, have the first wheel mounted on the winding arbor. The wheel is held on by a spring cup washer. The part of the brass hub onto which the cup washer and wheel slip is staked to compress the cup washer enough to keep the wheel in place under some tension while allowing the arbor to slip so the spring can be wound. These often become loose and the solution is to stake the brass hub to tighten the cup washer, as was suggested by others. Sometimes the brass hub can slip on the winding arbor because the drive pin has sheared or the spline has failed. Had you applied Loctite to the first wheel on such a clock the winding arbor would be locked to the wheel and you would not be able to turn the winding arbor without stripping the gear teeth. On your clock the spring is in a barrel and attached to the barrel and the barrel rotates around the arbor to accomplish the same thing.

Had you initially identified the part you were working on as the second wheel all of our responses would have been quite different. Securing a 2nd. wheel to the arbor can be challenging because that wheel is under considerable loading, likely why it worked loose. Had the original problem been correctly described and/or accompanied by pictures you would have gotten several suggestion about how to fix this........some good, some perhaps not so good. I would not have a great deal of confidence in Loctite holding this long-term, but glad you have the clock back running.

RC
 

sjaffe

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OK, I believe I see where the misunderstanding occurred. The original poster asked how to attached the FIRST WHEEL to its arbor. In 400 Day clocks, some refer to the mainspring barrel as the "first wheel" while others refer to the next wheel in the chain as the "first wheel" (others would call this the "second wheel". The original question said the first wheel was loose on its arbor and I assumed they were asking about the wheel that follows the mainspring barrel. If that was the case, I have done this repair effectively using Loctite Thread Locker (red). Capillary action draws the liquid between the wheel hub and arbor and it sets up over several hours. It is not a "traditional" repair, so some do not favor it. If the original question was regarding the mainspring barrel, then yes, absolutely do not use any form of adhesive. It would be helpful to resolve this issue if the OP could state which wheel he was asking about.
Stan
 

Tinker Dwight

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Ten spokes, he is talking about the ratchet wheel!
If so, do not use loctite on it.
Please post a picture. There is way to much confusing as
to what you are talking about and what the problem really
is.
Is the click there? Is it an inside or outside ratchet? Too many
questions. Please don't do anything until we see a picture.
Tinker Dwight
 

sjaffe

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I believe the OP was asking about a 400 Day clock. The question was posted in the 400 Day Category. How did this get moved to "Clock Repair"? I think what he is trying to figure out really is specific to a 400 Day clock. It still is not clear if he is asking about the mainspring barrel, the second wheel or the ratchet wheel! :)
 

shutterbug

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It appears that he did mention it was a 400 day clock toward the bottom of the first page. I'll move the thread over there.
 

John Hubby

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Forget the staking and follow RC's instruction. I have never seen a loose 1st wheel on a 400 day clock.
The first wheel contains the spring. Maybe you are speaking of the 2nd wheel?
Willie X
Are you, perhaps, referring to the ratchet that has the click on the outside of the drum that has the winding arbor?
Sounds likely. This is usually a visible loose screw and cock, however.
Some have the click wheel inside the plate but I can't see it coming loose there.

Anyway, if the square is sloppy, though it can be temporarily fixed, this is a dangerous part of the clock to make mistakes in. If a ratchet wheel or click wheel, these are inexpensive fixes for something that could cost a whole lot more.
To all concerned who seem to be confused about the nomenclature of a 400-Day clock, refer to the exploded clock views in the Appendix of the Horolover Repair Guide. The Mainspring Barrel is "NOT" the first wheel, but is the mainspring barrel. The FIRST WHEEL is the first arbor with a gear that is driven by the mainspring barrel gear. Second, third etc, 4th wheel is the center (minute) wheel.

The OP is talking about a loose gear on the FIRST WHEEL arbor, which is not at all unusual in a 400 Day clock especially one that has suffered a relatively low intensity mainspring break. The second wheel also is prone to this failure on some models especially the Schatz 53.

The repair should be to re-stake the wheel on the arbor, but that may require reducing the ID of the hole at the gear center to ensure you get a good solid joint when staking. There is no cover washer, these were simply staked to the main arbor usually on a stepped section of the arbor.

I do not recommend using loctite on the first wheel although that does seem to work on a second wheel failure. If staking doesn't work the easiest thing is to find a replacement wheel, last resort would be silver soldering.
 

THTanner

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Thanks for the nomenclature - it is definitely a bit confusing.

In post #8 he says "the wheel is pressed on to the arbor with @ 10 spokes on the outside of the wheel. I have several degrees of wobble on the arbor."

Unless he is referring to the pinion that is driven by the mainspring barrel ( and I don't know how many "spokes" it would have, but it is not likely to wobble) it seems he must be referring to something other than the first wheel which should have about 30 teeth?
 

Tinker Dwight

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The problem is that the OP seems to refuse to reply to the thread
or post a picture of what he is talking about.
Ratchets are useually around 20 teeth.
The the pinion on the wheel driven by the main wheel is has 10 leaves.
It still isn't clear, even with that as to if it is the wheel or the pinion.
Staking the pinion will most likely fail. Then again, I don't know
if his has a pinion ground on the arbor or a separate pinion and
arbor.
Since he continues to refuse to reply or post a picture I'd have to say
that maybe he has already fixed his problem and gone on his way.
Tinker Dwight
 
Last edited:

THTanner

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Probably true - time to move on

The problem is that the OP seems to refuse to reply to the thread
or post a picture of what he is talking about.
The the pinion on the wheel driven by the main wheel is has 10 leaves.
Since he continues to refuse to reply or post a picture I'd have to say
that maybe he has already fixed his problem and gone on his way.
Tinker Dwight
 

R. Croswell

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Probably true - time to move on
Yes, but don't lock the door. I believe the OP stated a few posts back that the problem was resolved with Loctite. Would not be surprised if we have to revisit this one in the future. The unanswered question is what caused the problem in the first place. If in deed there was a 'spring release event' it likely will happen again if nothing has been done to prevent that happening.

RC
 

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