First tooth repair

[shimmystep]

I've not done this before, first time today so thought I'd post results, I'd appreciate any constructive criticism for the future. It took 2 pieces of new brass to get the fit, learnt.... 'go slow, file, test, file, test....'

 

[harold bain]

It looks real good, shimmy. About all I can suggest is to work a bit at the bottom of the tooth to sharpen the angle where the tooth bottoms.

 

[moe1942]

A+..A little cosmetic problem but won't interfere with function..A square double cut swiss file works great to square the root.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Looks pretty good to me. How does it mesh with the pinion?

 

[shimmystep]

Thank you very much for your comments folks. I've some good quality files but I do need a finer one to get between the teeth, so I'll put that on the shopping list following your suggestions, thanks.

Looks pretty good to me. How does it mesh with the pinion?

Good question, I won't know until I've cleaned up the adjacent pinion, I'll let you know!

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Shimmy-

Nicely done! It appears you have a bit of solder left at the root of the tooth and I would suggest using a razor blade to remove it rather than a file. Solder and files don't mix .

My only criticism would be the tooth is still a bit too tall. Run the fleshy part of your finger over the tops of the teeth and you will feel your replacement standing up a bit. It is very close to perfect though!

Good job.

 

[moe1942]

I have files for different metals..ferrous, non ferrous and trash.. and I use files on solder. Makes a clean profile as apposed to other methods..

Chalking a file before use will lessen build up..A piece of hard wood, brass, or aluminum cleans debris fron teeth quite well..Lye works good on AL. Put the wood brass or AL in the vise and pressing hard work the file across the surface with the teeth...not against them.

Swiss files can be purchased cheap..It's nice to have two or three sets. Use a sharpie to ID with F, NF or T..

 

[shutterbug]

I was going to point out the same thing that David did - just a little taller than the others. Great dovetail, and it should be very strong!

 

[moe1942]

Wells shucks..I thought everyone knew that topping was one of the last steps in tooth replacement..then shaping and dressing up..the first order of business should be getting a very good fitting dove tail in the right place. Tooth is intentionately left long.

And while on this subject, if the wheel has sufficient thickness a tooth can be made with a brass or steel pin...I prefer the method used here but others may find the other easier..

And before anyone gets a wedgie I'm saying this for those that are beginning and asking or beginning and lurking...not the distinguished experts..

In fact I should explain the correct way to sweat solder..but I ain't...nother time..nother thread.

 

[David S]

I think it looks great for your first attempt. For sure better than my first one.

A question regarding "squaring" the root of the tooth forum. Other than cosmetic, is there another reason to not leave a slight radius? I am not a fan of the stress risers on parts like teeth, so usually leave a slight radius.

Comments?

 

[moe1942]

I think it looks great for your first attempt. For sure better than my first one.

A question regarding "squaring" the root of the tooth forum. Other than cosmetic, is there another reason to not leave a slight radius? I am not a fan of the stress risers on parts like teeth, so usually leave a slight radius.

Comments?

As long as the mesh is correct it's cosmetic only...the people that inspect plates for shine will probably catch it though...

 

[shimmystep]

tried to square the root and shorten the tooth a little, think that will be as good as it gets from this noob! Thanks fellas for your advice.

 

[moe1942]

tried to square the root and shorten the tooth a little, think that will be as good as it gets from this noob! Thanks fellas for your advice.

Looks good...Press on..

 

[David S]

As long as the mesh is correct it's cosmetic only...the people that inspect plates for shine will probably catch it though...

Thanks Moe I appreciate your sense of humor (humour?)

David

 

[shutterbug]

It actually looks better than the teeth next to it

 

[moe1942]

Thanks Moe I appreciate your sense of humor (humour?)

David

Either or...and I hung criticality up when I turned sixty...

 

[Watchfixer]

In old days, replacing a tooth or two were wheel had edge beveled then hand-fitted tightly and thicker than wheel's thickness, beaten to squeeze onto the bevels to lock new brass in. File new teeth. The Seth clock I repaired had one teeth done that way. No solder.

Cheers, Watchfixer

 

[R&A]

Get yourself a pair of dial calipers. You will be able to measure between the teeth and the size of the tooth itself. This will help to keep the contour of the teeth the same. Looks good for a first attempt.

H/C

 

[leeinv66]

And while on this subject, if the wheel has sufficient thickness a tooth can be made with a brass or steel pin...I prefer the method used here but others may find the other easier..

And before anyone gets a wedgie I'm saying this for those that are beginning and asking or beginning and lurking...not the distinguished experts..

I have been known to use the steel pin as a tooth replacement trick when I am dealing with tiny teeth like those in the motion works of French movements. Often there is not enough material around the rim of the wheel to successfully file a notch for a replacement tooth. Hmm, I guess I had better stop doing it as I like shiny movements

 

[carloclock]

And while on this subject, if the wheel has sufficient thickness a tooth can be made with a brass or steel pin...I prefer the method used here but others may find the other easier..

And before anyone gets a wedgie I'm saying this for those that are beginning and asking or beginning and lurking...not the distinguished experts..

I completely agree.
many times I suggested to beginners to make repairs like this...not to distinguished experts, of course




All the best.
Carlo

 

[moe1942]

I completely agree.
many times I suggested to beginners to make repairs like this...not to distinguished experts, of course




All the best.
Carlo

Carlo, is that what I think it is or are my eyes lyin to me??

 

[Tony10Clocks]

Excellent work shimmystep.

 

[harold bain]

I completely agree.
many times I suggested to beginners to make repairs like this...not to distinguished experts, of course




All the best.
Carlo

Carlo, I hope you are joking about recommending a repair like that.
We have a hall of shame thread here full of bad repairs like that one.

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah, that's painful to even look at

 

[Kevin W.]

Carlo i got scared when i saw your picture, and i do hope you were kidding.
Nice job Shimmy, i think you did very well on your first tooth replacement.

 

[carloclock]

Carlo, I hope you are joking about recommending a repair like that.
We have a hall of shame thread here full of bad repairs like that one.

When I see a wheel fitted with iron pins I can only imagine the great efforts made by old clockmakers in lack of tools, time and very poor customers with almost no money at all...and I can justify that kind of repairs.

No excuses at all to an expert who suggest to beginners such a bad practice.

Prompts to beginnes MUST be only of the first quality.

Regards
Carlo

 

[R&A]

i completely agree.
Many times i suggested to beginners to make repairs like this...not to distinguished experts, of course

View attachment 145421


all the best.
Carlo

wow.

H/c

 

[harold bain]

Thanks for the clarification, Carlo. I agree we should recommend the best way to do a job, as the original poster did it. If it is beyond the skill level of those new to repair, they should recognize this and send the job out to someone who will do it right.
Kudos to Shimmystep for a job well done.

 

[moe1942]

What I suggested is old school and I believe recommended in a clock repair book by I forget but will look up..I thought everyone here was entrenched in the techniques of the 19th century....


And Carlo, I should have added that the pin is filed to match existing teeth..what Shimmy accomplished at his skill level is very commendable..and not within the capabilities of most new to clock repair..I think it is safe to say that it would tax even a lot of "experts"..

So, I again say, those with limited skills should consider using the pin method and practice the more acceptable method on some old wheels..

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...


I just remembered, I think, the pin trick is in a book written by De Carle...I'm going to find the book and look it up..

 

[moe1942]

Here's another trick for those that are lazy like me..I have accumulated a box of gears and old movements over the years.If or when I need to replace a tooth or teeth I will look in my box for a gear matching the one needing repair..use it as a replacement or cut out the needed teeth...
Not much difference in gearing and tooth profile especially in American clocks..

 

[moe1942]

I have been known to use the steel pin as a tooth replacement trick when I am dealing with tiny teeth like those in the motion works of French movements. Often there is not enough material around the rim of the wheel to successfully file a notch for a replacement tooth. Hmm, I guess I had better stop doing it as I like shiny movements

Beware the Tasmanian devil..

And to lend legitimacy to your pin repair here is attribution..Clock repai by Robert J. Hoey..

If the wheel is thick enough I think it would be better to drill a round hole. That would give more support..

 

[leeinv66]

legitimacy! Sheez, now there is a concept that is ever changing in horology!

Like everyone else, I would rather cut in a new tooth if possible. But, sometimes it isn't. I do not have the equipment to cut new wheels and most often the added price of having one cut makes the repair uneconomical. I have seen the pin repair method used in quite a few French clocks over the years. These were old repairs that have stood the test of time. While the repairs failed the "invisible test", they passed the "mechanically sound test" with flying colors.

I have also had several French movements pass over my bench that have had teeth replaced and have again failed. They did not fail because of poor workmanship, they failed because there just wasn't enough material left on the rim of the wheel to maintain its structural integrity. The wheel rims had cracked clean through. So, when faced with a tooth repair on a thin rimmed wheel, I will use the pin method if I feel the wheel's structural integrity will be compromised by filing in a new tooth.

And Moe, I'm with you. I prefer to drill a round hole. I also make a stepped pin that is a few thou smaller in diameter where it presses into the wheel. This gives me more material to work with when shaping the replacement tooth/pin.

That's what I do and I am not fussed if it doesn't meet with universal approval.

 

[moe1942]

legitimacy! Sheez, now there is a concept that is ever changing in horology!

Like everyone else, I would rather cut in a new tooth if possible. But, sometimes it isn't. I do not have the equipment to cut new wheels and most often the added price of having one cut makes the repair uneconomical. I have seen the pin repair method used in quite a few French clocks over the years. These were old repairs that have stood the test of time. While the repairs failed the "invisible test", they passed the "mechanically sound test" with flying colors.

I have also had several French movements pass over my bench that have had teeth replaced and have again failed. They did not fail because of poor workmanship, they failed because there just wasn't enough material left on the rim of the wheel to maintain its structural integrity. The wheel rims had cracked clean through. So, when faced with a tooth repair on a thin rimmed wheel, I will use the pin method if I feel the wheel's structural integrity will be compromised by filing in a new tooth.

And Moe, I'm with you. I prefer to drill a round hole. I also make a stepped pin that is a few thou smaller in diameter where it presses into the wheel. This gives me more material to work with when shaping the replacement tooth/pin.

That's what I do and I am not fussed if it doesn't meet with universal approval.

I think the two responses that jumped the gun were thinking the pin would be left round and not shaped..I have never used that technque but have seen that type repair and when finished is equal to or better than any other method. Really no different than using a piece of flat brass when finished.. If people could break out of the "its always been done that way" syndrome they could improve the efficiency of their business without sacrificing quality..


Since I didn't respond to the critical comments, I think you know how I feel about approval.. I love the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth...

And your stepped pin idea is great..

Like you I will dove tail in a new tooth if possible..Using teeth from a sacrificial gear makes short work of the task..but Since I closed my shop in the 80's I haven't had to do any teeth repair. Just work on my own anymore. I used to do it the hard way with a piece of brass til it dawned on me that I had ready made teeth at hand...

Necessity is the mother of invention by lazy people..

 

[Jmurrell]

I would agree with what shutterbug said.
John

 

[leeinv66]

I love the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Ditto I think sometimes repairers forget the time and effort they put into a repair isn't paid for by them.