first fusee movement: several questions

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by bruce linde, May 20, 2016.

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  1. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    #1 bruce linde, May 20, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2016
    just got my first fusee movement clock... they're very cool.

    here are my questions:

    - the time works seem to spin way too freely. there's a canoe washer that doesn't seem to be connected to (or touching) anything but the arbor. should the arms be re-bent to apply a little pressure to the time works?

    - it came without hands. it looks to me like the minute hand goes on the central arbor (with squared edges) and the hole in the hour hand would fit around the 7.64 mm raised/shoulder area with the cut-out/indentation. is that correct?

    - i think i understand about pre-loading the mainspring with a wind or two... can someone summarize the why and how of that? also... is there a way to let it down safely without waiting eight days for it to run down?

    - any recommendations on replacement hands?

    - although i haven't stripped it down and cleaned it yet, it's running along merrily... although the total arc left-to-right of the bottom of the threaded regulating rod is maybe 5/8". is that typical? drops and locks look (and sound) reasonable and even.

    thx,
    smike



    canoe.jpg hands.jpg
     
  2. daveR

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    #2 daveR, May 20, 2016
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
    Hi Smike
    The threaded hole you have labelled as an hour set screw is to take a tiny screw to hold on and in place the hour hand, which means you have to be aware of the position of the canon when you assemble the motion work so the hand points cleanlyto a number. You can't slide the hand around afterwards. Your "canoe" washer tensions against the minute hand canon when you putin a pin to hold the hand. The minute hand fits overthe square. The washer is the "clutch" that allows you to change thetime. I think that slot is just some metal that has worn away from the wall.
    David
     
  3. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I've seen it suggested on these boards that the screw to hold the hands dates back to the 17th century on English clocks. I don't believe this.

    I think the screws appeared as a repair when the locating lugs/hands wore (or the lug fell out) and the hands became loose. I don't know how old this clock is but perhaps the slot was the original method of locating the hand and the screw added when the slot became worn.
     
  4. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #4 eskmill, May 20, 2016
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
    Smike asks about the fusee: "- i think i understand about pre-loading the mainspring with a wind or two... can someone summarize the why and how of that?"

    The "initial pre-load" is simply an arbitrary adjustment of the mainspring based on experience and practice by "crusty old clock-smiths."
    :p

    Proper adjustment of the mainspring click requires a sturdy movement holder, a long lever with the proper socket square to fit the fusee arbor and an an adjustable weight fitted to the long lever or a spring scale to measure the strength of the mainspring as it is compensated by the fusee. The process assumes that the fusee taper was cut to be used with the then available mainsprings.

    Basically, with the verge removed so that the works may be controlled manually, and the mainspring ratchet set for minimal initial strength, the fully unwound strength and fully wound strengths are evaluated at the fusee arbor and recorded. Next, the mainspring ratchet is reset for a higher strength and again the force measurements are made and recorded. The process is repeated with the objective being to discover a setting of the mainspring ratchet that reveals the most linear strength portion of the mainspring's length. The adjustment provides for a relatively even operating force to the escapement during and eight-day operation of the timepiece.

    Of course, the mainspring must have been cleaned and lubricated prior to the evaluation and adjustment process. Servicing these long and forceful mainsprings requires some heavy equipment and due caution.




     
  5. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    I think I prefer mine 'crusty'! :cool:

    the only part that I'm still not clear on is... once the movement has run down completely, how do I let down the still-existing (yes?) pre-load for disassembly and cleaning?

    and, what I really meant when I said "the only part" was in reference to that only that last sentence… :cool:

    another question would be should/can I use regular mainspring oil on the chain once cleaned? Or nye? or horolube?

    smike
     
  6. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Smike asks in part: "......should/can I use regular mainspring oil on the chain once cleaned? Or nye? or horolube?"

    Use the lubricant of your choice or follow the advice of experts when selecting oils.
    :cyclops:

    That said; ultrasonic cleaning the fusee chain is done at your own risk !
    The example I cleaned in the US was mostly held together with accumulated dirt. :excited:
     
  7. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    yipes... good to know. so... what IS the recommended method for cleaning a fusee chain? degreaser, wash and dry, re-lubricate?

    also... maybe i'm being a dork, but once the movement runs down all the way, i'm still confused about how to let down the final bit of mainspring tension for disassembly... ?

    thx,
    smike
     
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi smike,

    The barrel arbor will have a ratchet wheel squared on to it, so hold that square in a large pin vice or other appropriate tool and then loosen the click and let down the remaining tension. There should be enough of the square to hold, because it has to be used to put the pre-tension back on when it's reassembled.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    thx... I guess I got nervous from (I think) shutterbug mentioning in another fusee thread that fusee springs were very strong, w/ multiple warnings... if it's only a turn or two remaining it should be ok to let down normally









     
  10. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Can you elaborate on "locating lugs"? What kind of repair? John Robey, in his Longcase Reference tome, clearly states these screws are one way used to hold hands on. No mention of repair or lugs. The same method(s) used on longcases were used on spring clocks.

    Is your comment only in regards to when the use of a screw started?

    Ralph
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

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    Yes, I think that screws were used as a later system and as a repair to earlier clocks when wear resulted in a loose hand. Smike has not given any indication of the age of his clock.

    The little upstand with the pin that should be there on many clocks to hold the hand and stop it rotating on its own can be worn off requiring a modification to overcome the loss.

    I've just got my first clock with a screw for the hour hand, a late 19th century painted dial.
     
  12. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    probably a similar vintage as yours... it says kind county council on the dial and has lcc stamped on the movement
    s
     
  13. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Is it English? Would that be Kent? Pictures of the plates and pillars plus details of case and beszel would help with dating.
     
  14. BigAl

    BigAl Registered User

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    In my dim and very distant childhood everything from school books to lamp posts was stamped LCC. It stood for London County Council. Could it have been stamped on clock movement owned, or at least made for, the LCC?
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    That seems likely, could be a London Borough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_County_Council

    However Kent County Council was also formed in 1889

    Either way the clock could be older
     
  16. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    here are photos... the dial was paper on a steel plate and is out being re-painted. the movement runs great, even though it hasn't been cleaned or set up yet.

    s-l1600-1.jpg movement_top.jpg movement_side.jpg movement_barrel.jpg movement_back_2.jpg s-l1600-10.jpg s-l1600-3.jpg s-l1600-2.jpg movement_front.jpg
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    That looks like it was originally made for LCC, which would be right for the construction style so post 1889
     
  18. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    post 1889, but pre-what?

    got any idea of 'between 1889 and _______'?
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi smike,

    A lot of these were made by Thwaites & Reed, who still exist, so they might be able to help you with this, although I don't know how comprehensive their records are.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

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    #20 novicetimekeeper, May 23, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
    Well LCC was replaced in 1965 but I would have thought with a chain fusee your are no further than the first quarter of the 20th Century. I would have expected T&R to have their own stamp on the movement but they may at least be able to tell you when they stopped making chain fusee dial clocks.

    EDIT :

    Well I'm amazed, now I've done a bit of research. They were still making chain fusee dial clocks virtually right up to the demise of London County Council, certainly in the fifties.

    There is a specialist who will give you an appraisal for a fee, he specialises in railway clocks but he can probably help. He charges £12 for an appraisal, but if you email him he can advise if he can help with your clock.
     
  21. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    According to Richard Rose's list of Dial Clock movement serial numbers produced by Thwaits; they manufactured serial numbers 15317 through 16734 during the period 1889 through and including year 1910 for a quantity of over 1400 serial numbered movements during that twenty year period.

    On the basis of the subject movement serial number (17207) One might figure it would have been produced ten years after their circa 1910 production figure of (16734) or about 1920 but some consideration to the effects of WWI could have on the production of domestic clocks.
     
  22. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    guys -

    i appreciate the detective work! i reached out to thwaits, and they said they only had records (maybe) for movements that had their name and/or mark on them... but did appreciate my pointing out that the 'email us' link on their website displays properly to the user but is still coded to the default 'your@address.here'... that doesn't really qualify for the webmaster hall of shame, as i've seen it too many times! :cool:

    anyway, i've got hands on the movement, i'm going to regulate it, and i'm going with 'about 100 years old'.

    i will post photos when i get the re-painted dial back.

    thx again,
    smike
     
  23. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Les,
    Did you mean Ron Rose?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Hey Smike - it would be best to upload your photo's to our site. Eventually, the 3rd party site will dump the photo's, and the thread will be unusable to future searchers. Use the white camera icon in the reply window.
     
  25. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Graham asks, "Did you mean Ron Rose?"
    Yes, my data to guess on the date of Smile's clock, I used Ronald Rose's massive data in his book "English Dial Clocks."
     
  26. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    huh? I always upload photos... including those. why do you think otherwise?
    smike
     
  27. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #27 eskmill, May 24, 2016
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    Firstly, the images posted as inserted reside as a part of your post or reply and are not stored on the NAWCC's photo repository site whereas appended images become copyright jointly between you and NAWCC and therefore enjoy copyright protection.

    Secondly, although you own the original images you have inserted into your post or reply, you have little recourse if an image is miss-used or lost without your consent by just about anybody with internet access.

    And, as Shutterbug advises, if your images are stored on your own or a third party's facility and become lost or unaccessable, your image(s) effectively disappear.

    Correct me if I misunderstand the general guidelines and rules concerning photos and images used on this site.
     
  28. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I've got that book by the side of me and didn't realise it had a list of thwaites serial numbers in it! I'm glad the date came out there though rather than later.
     
  29. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    ok, now I'm confused... the big banner says 'use the camera icon to upload photos... which is what I'm doing

    pls tell me what other procedure to use... as well as how one tells whether images are appended or uploaded, etc

    as a professional webmaster, I have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about… yet

    please de-confuse me

    thx





     
  30. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i use the white camera option every time.

    so... what specifically makes you say/think i'm NOT uploading the photos to the nawcc site?

    if using the white camera icon doesn't upload them to the nawcc site...

    1. where are they getting uploaded to?

    2. why do the direct urls for the images start with http://mb.nawcc.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=________________ ?

    once i've uploaded them, i double-click on each one to select 'large'... which is why they appear full-size in posts... but as someone who builds such websites, i would be shocked to find that this site was somehow uploading images to and then accessing them from a non-nawcc server. it typically doesn't work that way.

    i'm thinking YOU'RE thinking i've got those big images stored elsewhere... is that the case?

    if not, please provide more specific 'what to look for' and 'how best to upload image' instructions... in painfully explicit detail, so i can not muck things up.

    thx,
    smike
     
  31. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Smike I think Eskmill may be confused, there seems to be TWO legitimate ways of uploading images, one the way you (and I and many others) do it and one as thumbnails (which by the way cannot be seen if viewing using the mobile version and thus are kind of irritating lol). Both I'm sure are saved on NAWCC

    Thats a lovely fusee clock you have there, congrats :)
     
  32. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I guess I'm wrong, Smike. But for the life of me, I don't know how you get such huge pictures uploaded here. When I do it, the images automatically are reverted to a smaller format and you have to click on them to see a bigger version. What photo format are you using? By way of explanation, when I see big pic's like that here, they are normally linked from another site .... hence the assumption. Let us know how you're doing the uploads. I'm curious :)
     
  33. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    They are probably pasting the image directly into the post, instead of using the icon.

    Ralph
     
  34. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    shutterbug -

    here are step-by-step instructions for adding large (but not too large) photos to the nawcc site. if you want to copy/paste/edit and make sticky, that's fine with me. i even used capital letters, just in case... a rare occurrence! :cool:



    ADDING LARGE IMAGES TO NAWCC FORUM POSTS

    It is possible to include large and clear images in your NAWCC forum posts... but you need to start with good photos.

    'Good' means: reasonably lit, in focus (!), and higher resolution. Images used in print pieces are typically 'high resolution': 300 dpi (dots per inch); web-based images are much lower resolution ('lo-rez'). A 5" wide image at 72 dpi is (roughly) 1/4 the size of a 5" image at 300 dpi. Web pages are (essentially) text files and associated images... the goal is to facilitate quick page loads by reducing image file sizes.

    Lo-rez doesn't mean low quality, though. While it is possible to down-size ('lower the resolution') of a photo without compromising quality too much, making photos larger just makes them look worse. You really want to start with large photos.

    NOTE 1: The author typically takes his photos with an iPhone and then chooses the second-largest image size option when emailing the photos to himself for uploading to this site.

    NOTE 2: If you don't have Photoshop (or some other photo editor) or just want to upload your photos as-is, proceed directly to Step 5.



    For each image you want to add to a forum post:

    1. Take the image into your image-editing software. Adobe Photoshop is the one of the most powerful such applications, but also one of the most expensive. Whatever program you use, you're going to want to be able to crop, re-size, lighten and/or sharpen your image(s). NOTE: this process requires that you START WITH A HIGH RESOLUTION IMAGE

    2. CROP the image. Cropping means selecting the area you want and discarding everything else. Here's an example of an uncropped photo alongside the cropped version:

    cropped.jpg


    3. Once you've cropped the image, RE-SIZE it to 1024 pixels WIDE at 72 dpi (dots per inch). Different cameras and smartphones can deliver images in different resolutions... whatever the original resolution of the image, you want to end up with an image that is 1024 pixels wide @ 72 dpi.

    4. Once you have your properly sized image, you can LIGHTEN or SHARPEN it as necessary. In Photoshop, the LEVELS filter is used to lighten images... either overall, or just the mid-tones; adjusting mid-tones slightly can dramatically improve your photos. UNSHARP MASK can be used to sharpen your photos; 35% is a great starting setting, as you can re-apply the filter if desired.

    levels.jpg


    unsharp.jpg


    5. Once you've cropped, re-sized, and (optionally) lightened and/or sharpened your image, upload it by clicking on the white camera icon in the tool bar at the top of your post. This will bring up the 'Insert Photo' dialog box.


    camera.jpg


    upload.jpg


    6. Here's where it gets good... in order to display your lovely image so people can see it clearly, double-click on it. You'll get the 'Image Settings' dialog box... change the setting from 'Thumbnail' to 'Large' and hit 'OK'.

    settings.jpg

    Repeat for all of your images. Your photos will look great and be preserved over time because you've uploaded them to the mb.nawcc.org server.
     
    eskmill likes this.
  35. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Excellent tutorial and explains the technique Smike has perfected. It's appreciated.:clap:
     
  36. BigAl

    BigAl Registered User

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    I use GIMP which is an open source version of Photoshop. It has all the same facilities as Photoshop and will run on all versions of Windows, on Macs and on Linux machines.

    I agree with eskmill. An excellent and well illustrated tutorial smike. Thank you.

    Mods, can this be incorporated with the "How to Add a Picture from your PC or Laptop" sticky? I for one think it will be a great help.

    BigAl
     
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Thanks, smike! I never knew about step #6, and I'm sure others didn't either! There's always something to learn here :D :thumb:
     
  38. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    gang -

    i was letting the clock run down and it finally has.

    in looking at the position of the chain and having read previous comments, i would have expected that there would still be enough extra pre-wind on the spring to still pull the chain... at least until it simply couldn't pull anymore... and yet there's still chain curved around the fusee part.

    i did try starting up the pendulum again to see what would happen, but it pretty much just came to a stop again...

    does this mean there wasn't enough pre-wind? that the spring has gotten tired over the years? that the final letting down for cleaning will be even easier than anticipated?

    or is the pre-wind just to provide enough tension to hold the chain in place, and what the picture shows is ok?

    thx,
    smike


    IMG_3611.jpg
     
  39. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #39 eskmill, May 28, 2016
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
    The nominal running time for most eight-day-running clocks is seven days. The actual running time may exceed sever or eight days while maintaining a "good rate."

    To anticipate that an eight-day-clock, although may operate twelve days, you should not anticipate that its rate will remain constant during the period exceeding its design of eight days.

    In your example you have allowed the movement well past the design of eight days. It is fortunate that the escapement did not continue else the chain may have "un-hooked" or worse, reversed the rotation of the intermediate and center wheels !.

    You ask in part, "does this mean there wasn't enough pre-wind?" No, not at all.

    The amount of "pre-wind" is a variable number of turns "discovered" during the process of "matching" the conical shape of the fusee to the "most linear" section of the mainspring. The process was outlined in post #4.

    It is my understanding that the earliest clocksmiths labored with the inconsistency of the then available clock mainsprings and in order to overcome or compensate for the non-linear mainsprings, actually designed each fusee cone to match the non-linear character of the mainspring at hand. Mainspring production, over the hundreds of years of steel mainsprings has, fortunately become refined to the extent that Dial Clock makers have more-or-less adopted a fusee which fairly well matches commonly available fusee Dial Clock mainsprings.
     
  40. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    yes, but... it seems to me the clock stopped exactly when it should have... with the chain just curving over the top of the fusee part. this insured that the chain didn't become un-hooked, etc.

    since i'm going to now disassemble and clean, i will re-attach the chain per the last photo uploaded and then do the pre-wind as detailed previously... just enough.

    ... unless there's a better way?
     
  41. harold bain

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    Make sure that the mainspring is fully let down before taking the movement apart, smike.
     
  42. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    yes
     
  43. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    #43 bruce linde, May 28, 2016
    Last edited: May 28, 2016

    harold -

    i very carefully put a towel down so the let-down process couldn't possibly damage the kitchen table (like last time... :cool: , put on my gloves and ... nothing. there was absolutely no tension left in the spring.

    i expected there to very little, based on the previously uploaded photo that shows the position of the chain and fusee when the movement stopped, but it seems that the last person who worked on it did NOT do the pre-wind and instead just let the clock run all the way down, hooked the chain back on over the fusee part during reassembly, etc.

    is it fair to say that the pre-wind both keeps the chain from falling off and offers a bit of geneva stop functionality? where one is not going all the way to the end of spring tension?

    smike


    p.s.: is it possible the chain is original? it is remarkably well-preserved....



    chain.jpg
     
  44. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
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    #44 shutterbug, May 28, 2016
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
    smike and all: I added the excellent tutorial above, about posting images to the board, to the one at the top of the forum.


    Edit: There is some concern about habitually enlarging photo's posted here, using smike's #6 above. By clicking once or twice on a photo uploaded without that step, it will enlarge to the same size, but keep the images smaller for easier viewing unless you want to see more detail. That is the preferred method, and also helps folks who are using slower internet connections. For the time being, I've re-edited the tutorial in the sticky.
     
  45. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Jan 22, 2002
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    In my experience with fusee clocks, when all is well, when the clock winds down, all of the chain will unwind off the fusee. Very little spring tension will remain on the barrel... and generally, you'll find about 1 , 1-1/4 wind on the barrel spring setup. There will be plenty of tension to keep the chain hooked. The clock should try to run with this light tension, with one or two clicks, not winds, of the fusee.

    You must make sure the fusee iron, which is the hook that catches the fusee on full wind, is functional. The other gotcha, is putting more tension on the barrel, by excessive setup, or having a too short spring, can make the spring wind completely, before engaging the fusee iron. At that point you will be straining the chain and the hooks (or gut) and can easily cause breakage.

    Ralph
     
  46. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    gang -

    the repainted dial is on its way back to me... very excited.

    in the meantime, i couldn't figure out why the movement would keep stopping after i had cleaned and re-assembled it.

    and then i realized that i hadn't lubricated the chain enough... so i re-lubed and worked every link manually just to make sure they all felt nice and loose (enough).

    and then it stopped again.

    and then i realized that i simply hadn't put enough pre-wind on the barrel spring, and it just didn't have enough power. i had been trying 1.5-2 winds, but it didn't perk up until i had 3.5-4 winds on it... at which point it suddenly seemed to wake up and be fine. in fact, it gave me a somewhat disgusted look, as if to say: why didn't you do that before, so i didn't have to strain?!?! 't's been running ever since.

    btw, i did check the spring, which looked newer/cleaner, and lubed.

    i'll post some pics when it's all back together.

    thx to all for the tips.

    smike



     
  47. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    never got around to posting a pic of the re-painted dial and done clock....

    [​IMG]
     
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