First Disassemble/Assemble

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Clockrepairforfun, Feb 9, 2017.

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  1. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Ok guys. I hope all is well.

    So I was wondering if you could provide any of that expert opinion. I have taken my Ingraham Movement apart and while I wait for my Main Spring Winder I thought I'd practice putting it back together/taking it apart a few times. I'm struggling putting it back together. Specifically, putting the lift lever in its proper spot and aligning all the pivots.

    Any best practices you can offer would be great? Diagrams, the like.

    THank you.

    IMG_3067.JPG IMG_3069.JPG IMG_3070.JPG IMG_3071.JPG IMG_3072.JPG IMG_3073.JPG
     
  2. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    There are no diagrams. I would suggest you leave the main springs out if you just want to assemble the two trains time and strike. It takes patience to do, work from the bottom up, put on the two nuts on the bottom of the plate to help hold it while you assemble. Also good lighting and put it high enough to see, eye level when sitting down. That is what i do and it helps.
     
  3. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Thanks Kevin.

    That makes total sense. Eye level. And putting on a couple screws to keep it in place. Ahhh.. Why I didn't think of that.

    What are your thoughts on the Lift Lever or Counting Lever? It appears their are three ends, one long, two shorter. I can't figure out which wheels the two shorter sides are supposed to land on. Can you help on that one?

    cs
     
  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Wish i could help more on levers. David labounty i think on his web site has good information on levers, might be worth a look.
     
  5. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    Don't force anything. Try to push & pull arbors by the pivot, not the arbor shafts (less likely to bend or break them. Look at http://timesavers.com/search.html?q=locator try to fashion something similar (if you don't own some)
    Be gentle, be patient.

    Keep a 3lb lump hammer on the bench to scare it into submission!!
     
  6. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Your levers appear mostly right. The J hook lifts the count hook and interrupts the stop pin, so the one part of it needs to be above the stop wheel (which it is). The stop lever also must be above the stop wheel, and it isn't in your picture. They both interrupt the travel of the same pin. Your hammer tail needs to be UNDER the strike wheel, and it isn't. You're almost there, and higher resolution pictures would sure help see things better. :)
     
  7. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Kevin. Perfect. Just what I was looking for. I downloaded David's article.

    BlkBear - thanks. And hilarious on the scare tactic. :)
     
  8. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The time to take pictures is before you separate the plates, and as you separate the plates. Too late now to wonder where everything came from.
     
  9. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Thanks shutterbug. That helps a lot. I'll take a look tonight when I get home.

    Yeah it sucks being the greenhorn on this site. I have no value to add other than my problems.

    cs
     
  10. scottmiami

    scottmiami Registered User

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  11. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    clock repair we were all newbies once, i still take lost of pictures and make some notes too before seperating the plates.
     
  12. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Don't feel bad. I've been on this forum for about three years now, and I'm still mostly asking questions. Would be nice to contribute once in a while!!
     
  13. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Great info, Kevin. I also like to use a rubber band on the top side stretched across the top side of the movement to keep slight pressure on pivots as I slide them into place. Provides just enough pressure to make them pop into their holes, but not enough pressure to bend a pivot. Hope this helps.
    Will
     
  14. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I like eye level and i put one lamp on each side of the movement, aiming the light low, under the plates helps me to see all pivots and levers better. And patience, if things dont go well, walk away for a while and do soething else.
     
  15. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Something else that will help a lot for your first teardown would be to have an identical movement to use as a model for how things need to go to work.
     
  16. lpbp

    lpbp Registered User
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    That model Ingraham is one of my favorites to work on, if you get the levers lined up close it seems most of the time locking and un-locking are set.
     
  17. bkerr

    bkerr Registered User
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    We get this packing material from work that I use to tear down and place the trains on. Bottom being spring top being fan or verge. I has worked well for me. I cannot tell you enough to take pictures as you go and the idea of having a spare to compare is nice if you can get it. attachment.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Do remember, with the rubber band. It shouldn't be stretched tight. You can tie
    several rubber bands together. I'd originally recommended the rubber band
    but forgot to mention, not too tight.
    You just want enough to not have to back track.
    I use a piece of 12ga. copper wire to push with.
    If the wire bends, I need to loosen it up some, not push harder.
    Only push on the pivots and not on the arbors.
    This is the most common cause of bent pivots.
    Never push on a pivot with hard steel as it will ding it.
    That is why I use copper wire.
    Push as close to the plate as you can.
    Make sure that nothing else is keeping it from moving other than
    the out of place pivot.
    As mentioned, work from the bottom up mostly. Some times
    there will be an out of sequence wheel with a longer pivot to deal with.
    Take your time. If you think you are starting to get frustrated, take
    a break. Assembling a clock is no place to get mad.
    Don't worry if you need 10 breaks on your first clock. That is better
    than a break in the clock.
    Also you should wear gloves. Finger prints make lasting marks on
    plates and wheels. They etch deeply over time. You don't want such a record
    of who was the last repairman.
    In the factory they used special jigs to hold the arbors aligned. Sadly
    we don't have these.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Clockrepairforfun, one of the sweetest sounds I ever heard was when I was assembling my first clock, and I heard the click as the final pivot meshed with its hole and I was able to tighten all the nuts on the back plate. I was tempted to smash open a bottle of Champagne on the movement, but considered that to be somewhat counter-productive. As others have said: patience, patience, patience, and when, not if, you get frustrated leave it alone for a while.
     
  20. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    cs -

    i've found both of these tools to be amazingly helpful when reassembling movements:

    https://goo.gl/oI9Yyq

    https://goo.gl/QM845a

    i've also used the first one to get to otherwise-hard-to-get-to click springs on tall case movements.

    most important though is to wear gloves when working with springs... and expect them to attack you. they're vicious, and bite when you least expect it. (i'd add a smiley, but i'm not kidding!)

    go slow, don't force anything.

    smike
     
  21. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Good idea. I don't have an identical movement but I do have one that is close. I'll pull it out.

    cs

    - - - Updated - - -

    Smike. Yep. I bought one. I have it but I haven't gotten past putting the plate on yet to actually use it. I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes.
     
  22. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    When I work a new movement - or even a complicated one that I know pretty well - I will put a little dot of color from an erasable felt tip here and there to show how teeth or levers line up. I use different colors for different places and make sure the dots are in a spot where I can easily clean them after reassembly if necessary. Then I take pictures and practice a couple of times. When you clean the parts the ink will almost always disappear, so do not plan on having the dots for final assembly after a good cleaning. I have seen some clocks where some one took an awl and scraped little marks into the wheel or teeth so that the marks are still there after cleaning. I don't like that really, but if it is your clock and you don't mind doing it, a little scratch here and there won't hurt much.

     
  23. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    I bet that was a good sound. I was pretty excited when I let down the mainsprings, which after reading all the reviews had me so fearful that I let go of the movement and it spun around on the table. Another story. I can't wait to get this first one under my belt. It is fun, but I think this is the part I may not end up being my favorite. Time will tell.
     
  24. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    I was lucky enough to get hold of two dental picks.
    IMG_3070.jpg
     
  25. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    even though you'll probably be holding the movement at eye level when trying to line up everything, it helps to have a conveniently placed light source on the other side of the pivot hole(s) you're looking for.

    while this doesn't work as well for smaller pivot holes (i.e., on french movements), it's a big help... especially for larger/regulator movements.

    us newbies need all the help we can get! :cool:
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I really don't like the hard metal pushers and puller. Especially for
    a first time clock assembly.
    You can ( or at least shouldn't push on the pivots with these ).
    It is safer to push near the end of the pivot but you can't do this
    with hard metal like the dental pick or the pusher/pullers form
    clock places.
    Start with the soft copper wire until you have a good feel for how to do it with
    the least tension. If you bend a pivot, you won't be too happy.
    I don't do clocks every day so I don't always use tools that a professional
    would use. I like to do things as safe as possible, not as fast as possible.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I've always used a small straight hemostat to move things around. As others have said repeatedly, very little force is used. And when I say "very little", I mean as close to zero as is possible.
    It's a good idea to see that the corner post are well aligned and square with the plate so that the plates will almost fall together.# If you do this, the whole clock will go together with just a little guideance here and there.
    Willie X
     
  28. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Actually, getting a pivot to mate with its respective hole is almost sexual. No brute force is really necessary: Merely line it up, and gently wiggle it around closer and closer to its target until you achieve complete insertion.:whistle:
     
  29. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    Cabin Fever, Stewey?
     
  30. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Yer darn right, BLKBEARD. I now have to put on me snowshoes and go out to get me some more logs for the stove.:(
     
  31. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    I don't take pictures. I make drawings of the entire movement with where gears go. I draw the levers and wheye to what gears (pins) they go to. Some lever assemblies have 2 to 3 different levers that go to warning pin and so on. I simply write 1 on the lever that goes to the first pin and then a 2 on the lever that is used second (as in goes into warning) and so on. I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner so I clean all my parts by hand so doing this layout works well for me so I don't lose track of where a particular gear goes. I also write down inside the drawn circle representing the gear F or B as in where the lantern gear is in relationship to its bigger gear. I know some are scratching their heads but this works well for me also rend inside very never had to adjust a single movement after assembled.
     
  32. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    #32 stewey, Feb 10, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
    For some reason I have got into the habit of just assembling the time side first and letting it run for a day or two before tackling the other trains. I guess it's because I consider this to be the 'most important' train, and there would be not point in going any further if there was a problem with it.

    Edit: I wonder why my post is appended with "RE: harold bain"
     
  33. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Well i practiced putting the movement together (for practice - less the mainsprings). Thanks to all your advice I was able to put it together. Eye level, light, metal pivot puller, start from the bottom, put in a couple screws, don't lose my cool. Thanks a lot guys. Of course I didn't put the levers in or any of that (mainly because I still haven't figured out how they work or where exactly they go back in) so don't be surprised if I hit you guys back up again on this. But it was a good first step!
     
  34. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Clockrepair sounds good on your progress.
     
  35. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The name of the poster who's post you "Reply" to will appear on top of your post :)
     
  36. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Hi, shutterbug. But I wasn't replying to Harold: I was just posting underneath Jasons34 post. No big deal...Just curious:confused:
     
  37. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Ah, but you must have been thinking of me, Stewey:coolsign:
     
  38. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Who knows, neighbour, maybe I was.:)
     
  39. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I think the only way to get the RE: is to use the "reply with quote". I'm doing it as an experiment here.
    Lets see if it works.If
    you don't want the quote you can always delete it.Tinker Dwight
     
  40. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    I too start with the strike side first. I'll get both mainspring trains in place and work down the line (up the movement) on the strike side minus the govenor. Once that's complete I'll use finger pressure on the 2nd wheel and temporary install the minute hand and rotate that clockwise till the strike falls into warning and then further till it starts. If that all goes well Thani know that side is good. I then install the govenor and do the time side which is simple.
     
  41. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    #42 bangster, Feb 10, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
    HERE's a pic of my home made pivot getter, made from screwdriver. I find it less cumbersome than the commercial pivot locators. Notch in tip for pushing, hook in side for pulling.

    AND HERE's an accompanying post I wrote at the same time, for what it's worth..
     
  42. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Notice that bangster's post above credits smike as the poster he is replying to. He no doubt hit "Reply" under smike's post. That's how it's supposed to work.
     
  43. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    Bangster, the second last sentence in the link you just posted read "Tighten down the pillar nuts." Just 15 minutes ago, a clock I had just assembled and placed on a test-stand had been running and striking quite happily for just over an hour, and then it suddenly stopped. After assaying the sityation and scratching my head for a while, I realized the the four pillar screws (not nuts in this case) were not completely tightened...Sityation fixed and a lesson learned.:clap:
     
  44. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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  45. stewey

    stewey Registered User

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    You're welcome: I hope it helps. I should add along with all the other helpful hints that have been posted.
     
  46. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    me and shutterbug have a special thing...
     
  47. Clockrepairforfun

    Clockrepairforfun Registered User

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    Yeah I'm starting to get that. Well as long as you sprinkle in tips and tricks I'm fine with you guys hijacking my thread. :)
     
  48. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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  49. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    You won't get there unless you practice assembling the whole train. Otherwise you won't know how to set it up.

    Grab all the wheels and arbors for just the strike side including the levers plus the center arbor. Now, set them into the front plate pivot holes starting with the center arbor and the mainspring arbor (S1). Position the center arbor so that the tip of the lever lifting tab on the arbor is pointing to either 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock.

    Install S2 AND the countwheel lever arbor (the arbor with the long arm that has a flat tip). The end of the arm should be in one of the deep slots in the countwheel.

    Install S3. S3 should have a metal disk on it with 2 ramped slots. This is the maintenance cam One of the levers will have an arm that will ride on the edge of that disk. Install S3 so that the end of that arm is in one of the slots and not on the rim.

    Install S4. S4 should have a pin in the side of the wheel. That pin should be captured behind the end of the lever arm that ends right there. There is a second arm that ends near there which does stuff later.

    Install S5 (the fan).

    In operation:

    The lever arm (J hook) that is next to the center arbor will be lifted by the cam on the center arbor. When it does, it will lift the arm of the arbor that holds the pin on S4. The arm that I said that does stuff "later" comes into operation now. This arm blocks the wheel with the pin from rotating more than half a turn. This is "warning". When the center arbor lever drops off the lifting cam, it will release the warning arm blocking the pin. The strike train is now allowed to run. The long arm will lift and drop as it counts the slots in the countwheel. The shallow slots will hold everything up just high enough that the arm riding on the maintenance cam cannot drop into the maintenance cam slot. When the countwheel arm reaches a deep slot, it will drop far enough that the maintenance cam arm will drop into one of the slots. This will allow the arm that captures the pin to drop into place and catch the pin as it comes around and stop the whole train. The fan will slip slightly on it's arbor to throw off the train inertia to keep things from breaking at the abrupt halt.

    That's it. For practice, I'd skip the time side and just assemble the strike side on the front plate only a few times unti you know where everythig goes. Then drop the back plate into place, get all the pivots into their holes in both plates and see how the whole thing interacts. Once you get to this point you will need to put the helper springs (the fine wires) in place too. Remember, the movement is desigend to operate in a certain positional orientation (ie; vertical, not horizontal) so it will operate best if you hold it in that position while you observe.

    NEVER bend anything. If it doesn't work, you're timing is off. It's not the lever needing "adjusted".

    Once you know how it works, assemble the whole movement. The hammer levers springs are a pain.
     

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