American Ferguson type

[John P.]

This image is of a railroad grade, 19j. Crescent Street byWaltham manufactured in 1904. As you can see, the dial is basically a Ferguson with the addition of marginal minutes and the inner hour markers in black in lieu of red. The dial is signitured, “Waltham.” The dial is true double sunk and enamel on copper.

The dial is so complex to read one can easily understand Webb Ball’s dislike of the Ferguson design.

I am wondering if this dial is one actually offered by Waltham or if it’s a Ferguson-type counterfeit?

 

[John P.]

This image is of a railroad grade, 19j. Crescent Street byWaltham manufactured in 1904. As you can see, the dial is basically a Ferguson with the addition of marginal minutes and the inner hour markers in black in lieu of red. The dial is signitured, “Waltham.” The dial is true double sunk and enamel on copper.

The dial is so complex to read one can easily understand Webb Ball’s dislike of the Ferguson design. View attachment 721293 View attachment 721293 View attachment 721293 View attachment 721293

I am wondering if this dial is one actually offered by Waltham or if it’s a Ferguson-type counterfeit?

PS; I don’t recall seeing a Waltham signiture followed by a period.
Sorry for the multiple images

 

[Nathan Moore]

This image is of a railroad grade, 19j. Crescent Street byWaltham manufactured in 1904. As you can see, the dial is basically a Ferguson with the addition of marginal minutes and the inner hour markers in black in lieu of red. The dial is signitured, “Waltham.” The dial is true double sunk and enamel on copper.

The dial is so complex to read one can easily understand Webb Ball’s dislike of the Ferguson design. View attachment 721293
View attachment 721293 View attachment 721293 View attachment 721293

I am wondering if this dial is one actually offered by Waltham or if it’s a Ferguson-type counterfeit?

However, this is not a Ferguson dial. Instead, this is a "marginal minutes" or "Montgomery" dial with the 13-24 hour figures, popular in the Canadian market.

This is a Ferguson dial:

 

[musicguy]

I like it

Rather than being a Standard Ferguson Dial it looks
like a Canadian marginal minute dial.


EDIT I see someone already posted at the same time


Rob

 

[DeweyC]

I like it

Rather than being a Standard Ferguson Dial it looks
like a Canadian marginal minute dial.


EDIT I see someone already posted at the same time


Rob

Speaking of which. There had been listings for reproduction Fergies. Perhaps we can inform readers how to tell repro Fergies from genuine without removing the dials. I think these are showing up on watches now.

 

[Nathan Moore]

Speaking of which. There had been listings for reproduction Fergies. Perhaps we can inform readers how to tell repro Fergies from genuine without removing the dials. I think these are showing up on watches now.

A blue marker at the :45 position is a clear indication it is a reproduction (this should not be viewed as a fool-proof indicator since other reproduction dials exist without this marker). This marker is also present on other Ehrhardt reproduction dials.

Replica Ferguson Dials: The Blue 45-Minute Marker - Pocket Watch Database Blog

Because the patented Ferguson Dials are a favorite amongst collectors, many reproductions and replicas have been created to offer an expensive replacement option, often adding to the allure of the watch. Fortunately, the replica dials sold in the 1980s feature a clear indicator that the dial is...

blog.pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[John P.]

Am I to assume Waltham did not manufacture and market this dial? I wonder if there’s a listing of dials Ehrhardt made? There is no blue marker at the :45.

 

[Jim Haney]

The main thing about Ferguson's Dials are the Pat'd number on the back.

So many fakes around (besides Ehrhardt's) that to be sure you have to check the back for the Pat'd numbers.

 

[topspin]

This one doesn't have the blue marker at the 45 position, but regardless, I'm pretty sure I don't need to examine the back to know it's a reproduction ;-)

 

[Jerry Treiman]

Am I to assume Waltham did not manufacture and market this dial? I wonder if there’s a listing of dials Ehrhardt made? There is no blue marker at the :45.

If you are referring to your dial, I am almost certain that it was made by (or at least ordered by) Waltham. I have a nearly identical on on my 18-size Vanguard. As for the dot after the WALTHAM name, I have seen this on many unquestionably original Waltham dials.

 

[DeweyC]

A blue marker at the :45 position is a clear indication it is a reproduction (this should not be viewed as a fool-proof indicator since other reproduction dials exist without this marker). This marker is also present on other Ehrhardt reproduction dials.

View attachment 721320

Replica Ferguson Dials: The Blue 45-Minute Marker - Pocket Watch Database Blog

Because the patented Ferguson Dials are a favorite amongst collectors, many reproductions and replicas have been created to offer an expensive replacement option, often adding to the allure of the watch. Fortunately, the replica dials sold in the 1980s feature a clear indicator that the dial is...

blog.pocketwatchdatabase.com

Nathan,

Thanks for the link. I never saw your blog. Again thanks for collating and SHARING the information you have otained.

Back to Fergies. From what I have seen (in pics only), they are not true double sunk dials but seem to be pressed ala Waltham? Were some unsunk as in the repro you showed?

 

[Jim Haney]

Dewey,
Sorry, I don't understand your question? The Waltham dial in post 1 & 10 is a Double Sunk Dial.

The Ferguson in post 3 has a Faux sunk outline.

 

[thesnark17]

Pressed-center dials (aka faux sunk dials) were cheaper to manufacture and less prone to cracking because they were made in one piece. Makes sense that an aftermarket dial manufacturer would go with it.

Unsunk dials would be even cheaper to manufacture, but I've never seen one that I could verify to be original.

 

[DeweyC]

Dewey,
Sorry, I don't understand your question? The Waltham dial in post 1 & 10 is a Double Sunk Dial.

The Ferguson in post 3 has a Faux sunk outline.

Jim,

When I look at the photos that show the patent dates for these dials, there are no separate soldered seconds and center bits. This is why I wonder if they are pressed ala Waltham pressed center dials. And Nathan (I think) shows an Illinois Fergie with a plain dial (no sinkings).

 

[thesnark17]

Nathan is showing a reproduction dial with no sinkings. The original dials are pressed center dials, at least the ones I've seen. That's what I was trying to say in my previous post.

 

[DeweyC]

Nathan is showing a reproduction dial with no sinkings. The original dials are pressed center dials, at least the ones I've seen. That's what I was trying to say in my previous post.

THANKS!!!

 

[terry hall]

Here is an older thread on these, maybe of assistance

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/info-on-ferguson-dial.18029/#post-122745

Not ALL repro dials have the blue marker, only Roy's....
i have somewhere in safe a reproduction that is not an Ehrhardt... no blue marker but certainly a repro, it does not have the patent info on the back.
I believe early dials were pieced construction, and the swiss were faux sink dials.

remember also the hands were an important part of the 'system' and frequently missing... at one time i believe Joe Demesy (spell) had a hoard of them and they were dispersed years ago....

 

[DeweyC]

Here is an older thread on these, maybe of assistance

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/info-on-ferguson-dial.18029/#post-122745

Not ALL repro dials have the blue marker, only Roy's....
i have somewhere in safe a reproduction that is not an Ehrhardt... no blue marker but certainly a repro, it does not have the patent info on the back.
I believe early dials were pieced construction, and the swiss were faux sink dials.

remember also the hands were an important part of the 'system' and frequently missing... at one time i believe Joe Demesy (spell) had a hoard of them and they were dispersed years ago....

Terry,

I agree. I would want to find hands before I bought a Ferguson Dial. I wonder how many sets were put on repros.

Thanks to all. I really did not know much about these and I am certain future readers will find this helpful.

 

[butlercreek]

Can someone post a picture of the correct Ferguson hands please….

 

[rrwatch]

Can someone post a picture of the correct Ferguson hands please….

Her is an ad for the Ferguson dial, showing the hands.

 

[Nathan Moore]

Can someone post a picture of the correct Ferguson hands please….

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Regarding reproduction Freguson dials, the most common that I see are those that were marketed by La Rose (1970s and 80s, as I recall). They are painted metal and have an unpainted brass back. It can be difficult to identify them from just an online picture of the front but things to look for are excellent condition with no hairlines (being painted metal they don't crack) and faint concentric circles in the center.

Regarding correct hands, I have about 100 or so of them for various makes, but they are all (I think) 12 size. They came from an antique dealer in West Monroe, La. (and so were probably acquired locally by the dealer).

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

A pic of some hands: