• The NAWCC Museum and Library & Research Center are currently open. Please check the Visiting Schedule for Days and Hours at the bottom of the Visit Page.

Favag Favag F3

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Hello
I am writing because we inherited this FAVAG clock, i am a complete rookie to clocks but am kind of geeky with arduino, electricity, etc. with a friend we seem to have concluded that we need a master clock or fake one with an arduino, and that this clock probably is a slave clock but we dont know

1) what voltage to send
2) what frequence to send the signal

any advice would be greatly appreciated. if you need us to find more info we could probably check, but there isn't much written inside the mechanism

Screen Shot 11.png
 

rogerj

Registered User
Dec 21, 2014
131
1
18
Cornwall
www.rogerj.co.uk
Country
Re: Favag F3

I don't know this mechanism at all but I believe 1 pulse per minute was common in European clocks.
I don't know why there is a relay added either.It may be an addition. But if you can locate the two wires that go the main coils (top of pic) try dabbing 6 volts across. If no movement try 12..and then 24 volts. Quite likely two pulses in succession won't work in which case it might require pulses of alternate polarity at each activation. (likely) When you've got it to pulse it will become obvious if pulses are required every minute ...or half minute.
Posting this but hoping someone will come who actually knows it..

edit. This thread may be relevant:

Thread: Favag Electric slave clock problems

 
Last edited by a moderator:

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

hi roger -

thanks SO much for your reply. when you say 6 volts across, you mean the positive on one side and the neg on the other? i think 24v will do the trick from what I've scrounged around. do you think there will be a special pulse for the hour hand? it is a huge clock no second hands just minutes

EDIT : also any idea concerning amperes?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

tHi Again Roger and the NAWCC community

Here is a detail shot of the main coils. The clock is quite large and 24v didn't make it budge a bit. i am wondering if it should be more power? thanks so much


unnamed-1.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

rogerj

Registered User
Dec 21, 2014
131
1
18
Cornwall
www.rogerj.co.uk
Country
Re: Favag F3

You didn't mention it was a "huge" clock ...but larger dials often have a counterbalance on the tail of the minute hand. So no great power required.
I only mentioned 6 volt to start with so my suggestion was totally safe...But t is most likely 24 volts..the other thread mentions that and that the pulses are of a second duration. As for current...you say you are geeky with electricity..so just measure the combined resistance of the two main coils in series and by ohms law the current will be 24 divided by the resistance (as you know :)
You can probably make a driver with an Arduino and ..these may be useful.. can't see why they shouldn't work...search eBay for"298N Dual H Bridge" to drive it with alternating pulses.

edit.... new post while writing ....so...how big is the dial ? Can you trace the wiring and find where the relay figures in it. Normally there are just the two coils wired in series and the volts need to be applied to them.

I see the coil youve pictured is 300 ohms...That's higher than anything I've come across...two in series would be 600 ohms and would seem to imply a much higher voltage..But It outside of my experience so will have to wait for more informed opinion..
 
Last edited by a moderator:

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

im not at my studio anymore, but i will take a multimeter to it tomorrow.

geeky yes, but expert no, thanks for the ohms law shortcut =^_^=

also, thanks for the dual h bridge suggestion, i knew it would take an h bridge, wasn't sure which one. if we get it pulsing we want to hook it up to either the atomic clock via the DC577 or just use bluetooth or wifi.

the dial is probably 70 cm across the face? there are the two coils on both sides and the small one at the bottom, i will also draw out a diagram of how it seems to be wired up. from what i can gather from some old pdfs it is probably a favag f2 or f3.

thanks for sharing your ideas, like i said we have basically minimal electric and electronic experience but we are curious

Nutjob
 
Last edited by a moderator:

rogerj

Registered User
Dec 21, 2014
131
1
18
Cornwall
www.rogerj.co.uk
Country
Re: Favag F3

If eBay is any guide, the price folk ask for large slave clocks now is beyond belief. At 70cm you may be sitting on a small fortune !!
I've searched on, and found at http://wp.clockdoc.org/miscellaneous/slave-clocks/ Favag F3.tif which looks the same as yours.
It has the relay fitted. Now I'm guessing... but it could be that the relay is wired in the low voltage clock loop and a higher DC voltage is supplied direct to the "motor" (it being impractical to wire higher voltage dials in a series loop)
In which case I would be curious to know the resistance of the relay coil..quite low probably between 10 to 30 ohms ?
You can discover how it works by looking under the plate where the relay is mounted, for a rotor which you should be able to rotate and note that it stops by magnetic attraction in each of two places. Whatever position it is stopped at will require a voltage pulse of the correct polarity to get it to step. (the wrong polarity will have no effect) You should see that the hour hand is driven via a gear wheel train off the minute hand arbor. make sure this all works freely.
Regarding the voltage..It will be impossible to damage the coils with a quick dab of too high a voltage so, after proving that the rotor is free to turn, try 48 volts. I can't think it would be higher because above 50v electrical safety starts to become a concern.
Depending on what voltage you find, or are told, you would need to check the spec of the ebay cheapo H bridge to see what it's max working voltage is..
BTW..you said "there are the two coils on both sides" are you sure you don't mean there are two coils, ONE on each side ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

HI Roger!

Thanks so much for following up with me!


"there are the two coils on both sides" are you sure you don't mean there are two coils, ONE on each side ?
yes absolutely, one on each side and the small one on the bottom

when reading with a multimeter one post on each entry for the clock i get 3,700 Ohms.

I can't seem to isolate the relay coil. i believe it says 1000 Ohms on it.

the clock moves freely. when i give it 24V DC it moves a tiny bit, i havent yet been able to get my hands on a 48V source.

I also checked through the documentation of favag on the clockdoc site. not too much to report there.

but it could be that the relay is wired in the low voltage clock loop and a higher DC voltage is supplied direct to the "motor" (it being impractical to wire higher voltage dials in a series loop)
this might be possible but there are only two lines running to the machine.

i will keep you posted. any other thoughts or things you think i should check by all means let me know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

rogerj

Registered User
Dec 21, 2014
131
1
18
Cornwall
www.rogerj.co.uk
Country
Re: Favag F3

There are quite a few extremely expert contributors to the electrical forum who know far more than I do, and I'm sure it's being read. (Thanks to HB for changing the thread title !) But as no one has come forward with better information I'm assuming your clock is not known to them.
So, for the time being at least its just me...
So, continuing... If your ohm-meter reading is correct, that is a big puzzle. Does it change if you you manually operate the relay by pressing the armature at its left hand side ?
In the favagF3 image on clockdoc there are what look like terminal blocks at the top and bottom. I can see one at the the bottom of your picture but the top is not shown. Check to see if they ARE terminal blocks.
It won't be possible to get much further by guesswork until you can trace out the circuit so we know what function the relay performs.
Essentially: what is the coil of the relay is connected to? (terminal block ?)
Where are the relay contacts connected ? - the wires appear to head upwards to the main motor coils area.
 

Tinker Dwight

Registered User
Oct 11, 2010
13,666
72
0
Calif. USA
Re: Favag F3

Rather than get real fancy, you might start out with
a temperature compensated clock module, DS3231.
Good to 2 minutes a year and doesn't have dropouts of
an atomic clock.
Use the 1 second output to an interrupt port of the arduino.
One can use relays instead of an H-bridge if it needs polarity
switching. Make sure to have something to take the inductive
kick back.
Some more pictures of the clocks wiring would be good.
Looking at your pictures so far is like looking through
a hole in a fence from a distance.
Tinker Dwight
 

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

Hello Tinker Dwight & Roger !

Thanks for your responses

Essentially: what is the coil of the relay is connected to? (terminal block ?)
Where are the relay contacts connected ? - the wires appear to head upwards to the main motor coils area.
power comes into a terminal block, then is out to the large coils and the small coil at the bottom which is also connected to the relay. the coils are fed from the terminal block by a much thinner curly green wire, and also seem to be linked up together with another set of the same type of wire.

Does it change if you you manually operate the relay by pressing the armature at its left hand side ?
no change in up or down, except a brief change probably cause by me touching the circuit

Here are some more photos for you tinker dwight and

Rather than get real fancy, you might start out with
a temperature compensated clock module, DS3231.
We are going to forgo the atomic clock and use a real time clock :) but first we have to get it to kick over :)

attached are some more photos as well as a very basic drawing.



also read some on this , would it be possible to calculate voltage using the formula

V = √ P * R



IMG_0049.jpg IMG_0046.jpg IMG_0047.jpg IMG_0045.jpg IMG_0048.jpg
 

rogerj

Registered User
Dec 21, 2014
131
1
18
Cornwall
www.rogerj.co.uk
Country
Re: Favag F3

It's now clear that the lower coil is not a relay but an actuator for the lifting part that allows the black wheel with pins to turn. When and how I can't guess. Unfortunately the diagram you've drawn does not show how the coils interact.
However it does seem clear that there are only two wires feeding the clock movement and, with further thought, that seems reasonable because this type of clock were usually wired in parallel and not fed in a series loop. BTW, I still think its likely that 24 volts is the correct operating voltage.
Apart from suggesting that you prove that the three coils when measured individually have the resistance stated on their labels , I think I've gone as far as I can in helping you with this problem. I hope someone who is familiar with these European clocks will happen along soon !
 

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

ROGERJ -

good news 24VDC at 2.5 amperes makes it kick!! the other power supply i tried was only 1 ampere. will send a vid shortly
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
10,506
766
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Re: Favag F3

that's more like a small heater than a clock isn't it? 60 watts to drive a clock seems a lot to me. Is that a usual power consumption?
 

Tinker Dwight

Registered User
Oct 11, 2010
13,666
72
0
Calif. USA
Re: Favag F3

I wonder what the issue was with the other 24V supply. 3700 ohms at 24V is
only 6 mA.
Unless there is a diode or a magnet some place, it should be a single polarity pulse
to actuate.
I'm curious about the tube on the upper right, between the terminal block and the
input connector.
It looks like a oiler input?
My guess is that the two top coils kick the wheel and the bottom coil
catches the wheel so it doesn't go too far. When the coils release it is
ready for the next pulse.
My guess is that the bottom coil is also used to absorb the back EMF of
the main coils. It probably has a higher resistance but lower inductance
than the upper coils.
If any of the parts are magnetic, it could use a polarity switched pulse, if
not, it would be just an on/off. I don't see anything that would indicate
a dual polarity H bridge is needed.
Tinker Dwight
 

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

Tinker Dwight -

it could be that the other power supply was faulty and in fact 24V at a much less amperage will suffice, i will keep you posted, i was just reluctant to spend money on the thing without being sure that it could work.

I can confirm that the tube top right is an oiler input which specifies to oil at 3 or 9 o'clock :)

it seems that the coils kick the bottom cog and the actuator at the bottom allows it to move one tick.

it does need reverse polarity to advance i am pulsing it once with the power pack, then switching the posts it is connected to on the clock and pulsing it again.

returning briefly to the arduino i ordered an h bridge but i also have three spdt here which i may line up in the mean time. (one that interrupts the current to the other two relays, one relay that sends in one polarity, and the other in the inverse polarity)

it seems you are also active elswhere dwight?

thanks so much nawcc members, roger and dwight for the help, i will keep you posted.
 

harold bain

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Deceased
Nov 4, 2002
40,851
172
63
72
Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Country
Region
Re: Favag F3

If you are using a wall wart transformer, put a voltmeter on it and watch the voltage drop under load. Many will put out their rated wattage, but the voltage suffers.
 

Tinker Dwight

Registered User
Oct 11, 2010
13,666
72
0
Calif. USA
Re: Favag F3

Tinker Dwight -

it could be that the other power supply was faulty and in fact 24V at a much less amperage will suffice, i will keep you posted, i was just reluctant to spend money on the thing without being sure that it could work.

I can confirm that the tube top right is an oiler input which specifies to oil at 3 or 9 o'clock :)

it seems that the coils kick the bottom cog and the actuator at the bottom allows it to move one tick.

it does need reverse polarity to advance i am pulsing it once with the power pack, then switching the posts it is connected to on the clock and pulsing it again.

returning briefly to the arduino i ordered an h bridge but i also have three spdt here which i may line up in the mean time. (one that interrupts the current to the other two relays, one relay that sends in one polarity, and the other in the inverse polarity)

it seems you are also active elswhere dwight?

thanks so much nawcc members, roger and dwight for the help, i will keep you posted.
Ya, that is me. About a year back, I'd bought MEGA board for the added I/O.
I wanted to take the 10 channel BCD output of my old HP frequency counter
and print it. This was before I found a real HP 10 channel printer.
I re-purposed the arduino board to be a clock timer strobe. I use the DS3132 as a
reference clock.
If it needs the reverse pulse, it would mean that the armature is magnetic.
Not that uncommon for European slave clocks.
It can be done with a single double pole double throw and a single pole single throw.
It works, as long as the double throws are break before make ( most common form ).
Tinker Dwight
 

ElectricTime

Registered User
NAWCC Business
Sep 28, 2002
245
24
18
Re: Favag F3

I'm pretty sure this is a reverse polarity minute impulse clock movement - 24VDC is pretty typical.

I would assume all of the coils/inductors would be across the signals - aka in Parallel - so you would get a reflected resistance of 650 ohms (assuming 3700/3700/1000) - assume a 24VDC power supply you would get i=v/r 24/650=0.0369 - or 36 ma.

You could purchase a 24VDC power supply pretty cheaply - from ebay - or a good source in mouser electronics.

I would use an H-bridge to drive this - especially if you wish to run the unit continuously - relays will fail.

I would select in the amp range for your power supply and h-bridge - this is a very inductive load.

My firm does make a unit that will drive your minute impulse clock - our 99B-MI control - but it's fairly expensive.



Interesting link to photographs of this style of movement.


When you get it running - I would love to see a video of the operation.
 

silicon_salut

Registered User
Feb 29, 2016
10
0
0
Country
Re: Favag F3

HELLO FAVAG FAMILY and NAWCC -

here is a vid of the clock working!
super stripped down arduino code sends an inverted polarity pulse every minute.

thanks tinker dwight and roger you guys rock thanks so much for your advice and help

[video]https://youtu.be/avZK4zJOUVs[/video]