Faux Hollow Column

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The new version of the Forum is coming! This major upgrade of the Forum will take place in the early hours of November 2 and should be completed by noon. There will be no access to the Forum while the upgrade is taking place.
  1. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Thought this might be of interest. First, it's a form that's a bit different than the typical. Second, it bears the label of a maker I usually associate with earlier brass movements with brass springs rather than weight driven ones though they are encountered by this maker from time to time.

    Let's start with a bit of a recap. A hollow column clock is one where the cylindrical elongated weights travel through columns that are hollow. These clocks have been discussed previously on the MB. I think the info in this past posting summarizes the subject reasonably well:

    Alden Atkins Hollow Column

    Scroll down to posting #10 on that thread. It contains links to a nice review article in the Bulletin on the subject as well as links to other MB postings with pix.

    Well, there is a group of clocks referred to by modern collectors as faux hollow column clocks. The fronts of these clocks typically have veneered doric columns flanking the center and topped with some sort of cornice simple. The diameter of these columns are such that they look like hollow columns, but they are not. The weights fall through the case. HOWEVER, typically the channels for these weights are narrow so most if not all of the ones I have seen require a non-standard "wafer" or square narrow ones. And too bad if you lose the weights as you cannot use standard 30 hour ones to run the clock.

    The works in these faux hollow column clocks may be wood or brass. They were made by a number of makers. Rodney Brace of W. Bridgewater, MA made them with wooden works. See Lanzo and Brown, page 90, figure 71 for one by Rodney Brace. The authors call this a "faux column". Well, it's a faux hollow column. The columns are real. Manross made them too. See Tran's "American Clocks", volume 3, page102, #'s 253-255 for an example of one of those. That was an 8 day with one of Manross' distinct movements. I actually once owned that very clock.

    Here is tonight's clock:

    terry & andrews 1.JPG

    The case is mahogany and mahogany veneer on pine. The veneer is beautifully figured and book matched.

    The original middle table is by Fenn:

    terry & andrews 2.JPG

    An example of this glass, in another clock, is shown in Linda Burleigh Servino's Bulletin article about Fenn on page 16, figure 27 :

    http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/1980/articles/1986/240/240_8.pdf)

    She comments about the lack of background in the center field so no, it's not missing. It was never there.

    The mirror in the lower door is absolutely original. See below.

    The inner pine backboard bears the label of Terry and Andrews:

    terry & andrews 3.JPG

    Note how the upper and lower portions of the case are actually divided with a slot to permit the pendulum to swing:

    terry and andrews 6.JPG

    Here's a closer look at the label:

    terry & andrews 4.JPG

    Interesting to me is that the printer of this label was in Philadelphia!

    The original dial is white painted zinc with a raised chapter ring and polychrome floral spandrel decoration.

    The unmarked brass weight driven movement sits on a seat board:

    terry & andrews 5.JPG

    I have not done the taxonomy as to possible movement maker.

    The weights fall in narrow square enclosed channels behind the columns. I meant to take pix of the original weights which just about clear the inside of these channels but the clock is fully wound and until they reach the bottom of the lower section, there is no access to them.

    A virtually identical example save for the presence of an internal weight driven alarm feature is shown in Lee Davis' NAWCC Bulletin Supplement 18, page 99, figure 175. Same middle tablet and mirror in the bottom door. In the same reference, see page 100, figure 176. Note the reverse decorated tablet and lower mirror again in another Terry and Andrews clock. Lee says that it's a hollow column...I'm not so sure of that. I think it's another faux hollow column by this maker.

    Now for a quick superfluous diversion and in the name of the bizarre, I bring you James T. White's Physiological Manikan:

    white's physiologic manikin 1.JPG

    This is a life sized 19th century anatomy teaching tool. It is beautifully chromolithographed on paper applied to cloth. The various sections open up to reveal the layers. Here's just a couple of the layers opened (there are multiple ones):

    whites physiologic manikin 2.JPG

    Oddly, thought clearly male, one of the fold out sections is a uterus and ovaries. Somewhat more bizarrely is that based upon my research, it found that later on they added a cutaway view of a gravid uterus. A true hermaphrodite?

    The entire thing is mounted in a mahogany case that folds in 1/2.

    Expensive for the day:

    afgfdv_1.jpg

    I wonder if they're still hiring?

    James White was a publisher, poet, etc. He was considered a bit of a Renaissance man in his day. In 1886, he founded a publishing company in NYC and this was one of his products! Here's some additional info that I have found:

    Whites' Physiological manikin

    Bonhams : WHITE'S PHYSIOLOGICAL MANIKIN. White's Physiological Manikin. New York, James T. White & Co., Publishers, 1886.

    'white's Physiological Manikin' Anatomical Model | 355738 | Sellingantiques.co.uk

    As indicated above, I've learned that it appears that there was more than one version of this. Mine is the earlier one which bears patent dates up to 1886. There are later ones that have patent dates from 1889 and a somewhat different looking guy. That's the one appraised here:

    Antiques Roadshow - Appraisal: Physiological Mannequin - Twin Cities PBS

    RM
     
  2. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A very nice faux hollow column, RM, in great condition! It's nice that you have space for the occasional non-clock object. I find I am now starting to take down the family pictures (which I have up mostly for the frames, anyway).

    Here are some pictures of my true hollow column clock, by Clarke, Gilbert & Co. The original glass is faux frosted. I don't think it's by Fenn; it seems too simple.
    IMG_2550.JPG IMG_2551.JPG IMG_2553.JPG IMG_2554.JPG
     
  3. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Thanks for sharing your wonderful clock and your kind comments.

    Great middle tablet. Note again the combination of a reverse decorated middle tablet, mirror lower most. In my rooting around, I seem to find that combination in other faux and true hollow columns of this basic type. Here's another example I found of a Terry and Andrews faux hollow column:

    terry & andrews faux hollow column.jpg

    Sort of interesting how in your clock the upper portion of the backboard is painted blue. You would see that through the pears on the glass. I have seen that in other hollow columns by that maker of as well as those by Smith and Goodrich. See this:

    Hills and Goodrich hollow column shelf clock on LiveAuctioneers

    Hills and Goodrich also used this paint scheme in their fancy ogee clocks. Again see this:

    Hills, Goodrich & Co., of Plainville, Connecticut. Mantel or shelf clock. @ Delaney Antique Clocks

    Joseph Ives used it in his version of these clocks as well:

    Joseph Ives Ogee

    RM
     
  4. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Though in the Hills and Goodrich, the painting is solid and the blue paint on the backboard would not be seen unless the door were open. I've noticed that many Black Forest clocks use blue paper behind the pendulum view.
     
  5. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In regards to painted backgrounds in American clocks, the 1839 patent model movement C.&N. Jerome half round cases very often had a blue background, usually with a "business card" label in them. Also, Joseph Ives hour glass clocks often had a painted background, over paper, done in green, black, or blue. Recently I bought what is either a Joseph Ives or N. Jerome clock, also with a blue painted background, no label. It has an Ives movement, and that movement was used by both Ives and C.&N. Jerome in 1836, and the case (glass and dial) has a lot of attributes we normally associate with early Jerome clocks. It is interesting to note that N. Jerome worked either for or with Ives for a fairly long period of time before the 1839 patent model clock was developed. And as Jeremy shows the Ives as well as the Hills & Goodrich clocks have the painted backgrounds. The movements between the H&G and the Ives models of the 8 Day Extra ogees are similar but have a number of differences in their movements. Both roller pinions, but...

    2018-01-24 18.50.50.jpg 2018-09-04 16.57.42.jpg 20180815_152011.jpg 2018-09-04 16.57.20.jpg !BlP9P-wB2k~$(KGrHqQOKjYEtj+EChokBL,3Wpebng~~_12.jpg Cus10188.JPG
     
  6. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Thanks!

    Excellent point. Besides painting the backboard a somewhat lighter blue, a darker blue paper lining (I think they called it "Prussian Blue", a popular color at that time for furniture and other objects) was also used.

    Certainly the visibility of that blue background would be important with clocks like the fancy ogees with the visible mirror backed gilt gesso columns and splat as made by Hills, Goodrich & Co and J. Ives. Otherwise, I'm not sure it was necessarily the primary focus.

    There is a history of painting/decorating the inner backboards of clocks which would only be visible when the clock was wound. The interiors of Joseph Ives mirror clocks may be a solid color:

    0701clives_det2.jpg

    Note the bluish-green. Or smoke grained:

    1075691_view%2002_02.jpg

    I have a Jerome's, Darrow and Co. pilaster and Scroll (reported somewhere on the MB) with a smoke grained interior, too.

    With regards to the use of paper. Let's not forget the use of the block printed wall paper by Asa Munger and his successors.

    RM
     
  7. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The Munger clocks had some downright scary wallpaper used in them in my opinion. I would not care to have a room done in such paper. Then I recalled we once owned a house in Hollis NH that I stripped out some very similar and quite oppressive wallpaper. Both one front room as well as the stairwell had wallpaper that you can see in the last 2 photos in this stack. RM, I suspect one of the Munger examples may look familiar to you, perhaps not? And the Ives mirror clock with the red striped interior I like quite a bit...

    $_57.JPG 0130asamunger-det3_lg.jpg 0904shasam_det1.jpg 214022Munger2-1394981194.jpg IMG_4821.jpg mungerstovepipe2.jpg Image 17.png Untitled-Scanned-04.jpg Untitled-Scanned-19v.jpg
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Scary indeed! I like how you show the effect of wall paper like that when used in a stair well. In the day, that boldly patterned wallpaper might have been paired up with an "ingrain" carpet, a form of equally boldly patterned woven wall to wall floor covering:

    IMG_0796.jpg

    This example is one of the more restrained combinations.

    Yes, that Munger (the one next to the silhouettes) looks quite familiar.

    The Ives with the red striped interior is great. Same type of decoration that was used on furniture, boxes, blanket boxes and so on.

    RM
     
  9. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    #9 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    Just to further hijack my own thread and, in the words of one, take this thread in the "expected direction", an observation.

    I studied your stair case photo a bit more and I realized I have seen a somewhat similar over wrought block printed scenic wall paper.

    Here's your pic:

    untitled-scanned-19v-jpg.jpg

    and see these:

    wall paper 1.JPG wall paper 2.JPG

    Well, my very own entry hall, stair case and upper hallway! And believe me, it is an improvement from what I pealed off, a 1970's wall paper that was doing what the wall paper did in Barton Fink's hotel room. I stopped here because there's bare rough plaster underneath and I wasn't prepared to further strip, skim coat and paint at that point. Well, 14 years later, I still haven't done it. I really don't notice it because it's so covered by so much junk:

    wall paper 3.JPG wall paper 4.JPG

    Well, someday I'll get to it.....

    RM
     
    Raymond Rice likes this.
  10. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I like your wallpaper better than mine.....and yours is well hidden!
     
  11. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    And it is original to the house, Circa 1920. There’s nothing underneath but the plaster.

    RM
     
  12. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The wallpaper in my Munger "ironing board" clock is quite subdued compared to those above.

    IMG_2559.JPG IMG_2558.JPG

    I found your post, RM, with the Jeromes and Darrow pilaster and scroll, but it doesn't have a smoked interior, just a full-size label, as does mine.

    IMG_2560.JPG IMG_2561.JPG

    This poor clock needs a good deal of work. You can see the paper scroll on top, put there to encourage me to make a real replacement for the missing original. It hasn't worked yet. The dial and wonderful tablet of a ship could also use some work.

    If you want to talk about wallpaper, here is some Art Nouveau reproduction paper in my 1909 apartment's dining room. It was the one paper both children agreed upon; turned out to be a great choice.

    IMG_2562.JPG
     
  13. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Thanks for posting your very nice clocks!

    I will say that the 2 crystal regulators go nicely with the art nouveau wall paper. Mr. Munger must have been a bit subdued that day?

    I have actually posted 2 different pilaster and scroll clocks. One did have a smoke grained interior. It's buried someplace on the MB so here's some additional pix:

    jerome & darrow 1.JPG

    The middle glass is a less than thrilling repop. It's what was there when I bought it. The glasses in yours are great. Peter Nunes posted a Jerome's and Darrow way back with a naval glass similar to yours.

    The lower tablet is actually painted tin with a glazed oculus.

    Here's the reverse of the door frame:

    jerome & darrow 3.JPG

    And the case inner backboard:

    jerome & darrow 2.JPG

    Note how they used their smaller label.

    Often smoke graining is applied to paint before it dries. To my eyes, here it looks like they just applied it to the wood. I would think to make it more permanent, the surface would have had something like a varnish or wash applied first?

    RM
     
    Jim DuBois likes this.
  14. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The hallway paper I pictured was early 20th century we thought at the time. But, there was nothing under it and as you can see while it had a very Victorian stairway "upgrade", the house was mid 18th century. So, that paper could have been part of the upgrade and 2nd half 19th century. The front room with the other paper shown was over what had been a stenciled plaster/horsehair very early hand split lath. And the stenciling would not have been the first finish I would have thought as that seems more likely to have been early 19th century. Old stuff is fun, at least for a bit? And with 7 foot ceilings ladders were not always required. But quicklime and horsehair? Not so good....

    The reeded pillar and scroll cases are of interest as they were used by several folks for a bit longer than one might think. I think I recall reading the cases were built by Chauncey Jerome while he was still a cabinet maker. Nobel Jerome was working for Joseph Ives at the time and the Ives / Jerome relationship went on for apparently several years, with a great deal of joint efforts culminating in about 1836. The Ives and Lewis is most likely 1822-1824 and the Jerome would date more like 1828 or 1830 at the latest?

    In 1823 he (Deacon Elisha [ sic - Elijah] Manross) was assessed as a wheelwright. That year Thomas Barnes, Jr. (proprietor of the late Joseph Ives & Co.), Chauncey Boardman, and Ives & Lewis (Chauncey Ives and Sheldon Lewis) were the only clockmakers on this listing, Chauncey Jerome being assessed as a cabinetmaker.

    Untitled-Scanned-39z.jpg 951973862_o.jpg 0808shcarv_det1.jpg
     
  15. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    That's interesting history. I remembered reading something about Chauncey being trained as a cabinet maker who also did interior woodwork for homes. I even have this vague recollection of a work stand sold at auction either attributed to or signed by CJ himself. For the life of me I cannot find that information again and frankly, my recollections may be totally delusional.

    I have later horse hair plaster applied to lathe throughout the house. Amazing how that rather old technology was used for 100's of years! Just basically a cut above coating the walls of the reed hut with mud? It's a pain in the butt, too. There are some areas where it's lost hold on the lathe and only the wall paper holds it in place. Makes hanging stuff, especially anything heavy, tricky. Unless it is skim coated or a special primer is used, it sucks up paint with a lousy final result.

    But it's like an old piece of wavy glass. When fixed and painted, the texture and variations are nicer than plain old drywall, IMCO.

    RM
     
  16. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #16 Jim DuBois, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
    While we are wandering far off course in discussing clocks here is some original lath in our Salisbury NH house circa 1812. Sorry about the drywall sheet in front of the lower part. This whole wall of lath was split out of one very wide piece of pine and it spanned 7 feet plus a few inches. Had to be about 5 feet wide when they started splitting it. There was no saving the plaster, it was falling off by the handfuls, but we left the lath as found....entirely different from what I expected to find for lath and I didn't find anything like it in our other early houses...it now lives behind the open top cupboard seen in this 2nd photo. And it is also interesting that while Salisbury is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, one of the famous furniture making Dunlaps lived and worked there. One of the houses had a raised panel wall that was thought to be by him....

    May04_15.jpg 7-full.jpg
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    That’s amazing.

    I’ve never seen lathe like that.

    An unusual example of how construction could be quite idiosyncratic before the days of building codes, standardized materials and practices.

    I think about everyone who has rehabbed an antique house finds that to be true. I dare say also true of many early country clocks?

    RM
     
  18. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I haven't seen that type of lathe, either, though I am familiar with hand split lathe that is fully cut into separate strips.

    RM, perhaps someday I'll ask you to send me the dimensions of the scroll top on your reeded pilaster and scroll clocks. I made my photomontage from a book or catalog photo of one of these clocks, so the dimensions might be a little off.

    I don't understand the thinking behind the "smoke" decoration. Surely there was plenty of natural smoke staining on household objects in those days. Why replicate that on something new?
     
  19. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    #19 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
    Here's the measurements from my 2 clocks (all in inches):

    Jerome & Thompson

    Wide: 13 7/8

    Height to top of scroll 4 3/16

    Height of center plinth 5/8

    Jerome, Darrow & Co.

    Wide: 14 1/2

    Height to top of scroll 4 1/16

    Height of center plinth 1/2

    Both are somewhere on the MB.

    Why smoke graining (well, not really "graining", more decorating, but the term is widely used)? A classic example of using what was readily available and certainly cheap to great benefit. It ain't just soot. It was a controlled process requiring much skill (you're controlling smoke and flame on a piece of wood furniture) and a artistic sense in order to produce rather interesting patterns that might not have otherwise been possible. It was often employed over a chrome yellow ground as I suppose it provided the best contrast. Other ground colors were used as well. It was used on tall clock cases:

    rileyclock.jpg

    And some shelf clocks (on the MB, you can find examples of Terry miniature ww with the sides smoke decorated over a chrome yellow ground).

    It was extensively used in first 1/2 of the 19th century on painted country furniture, boxes, you name it. It would have been most familiar to whomever made and decorated the case of my clock.

    image15.jpg image11.jpg image17.jpg

    Like I said, it ain't just soot! At auction or from better dealer or show, you would still pay a premium for these objects over the same one with just a simpler decorative scheme and most certainly 1000's of times more than for the one refinished by some knuckle head.

    RM
     
    Jim DuBois likes this.
  20. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for providing those dimensions, Interestingly, my clock seems to be quite different in size from either the Jerome and Thompson or the Jerome, Darrow & Co. The top board on mine is 16 1/2" long, and that is the length of the paper scroll I made. The height to the scroll top on mine is 4 1/2 " and to the top of the center plinth 3 1/2". The width of the platform for the center plinth on which the finial sits is 1 1/2". I'm not sure what you are referring to by height of center plinth of either 1/2" or 5/8".

    It seems as though the center plinth on these clocks is not a separate block as in "regular" pillar and scrolls, but a continuous plane of veneer. Is there a pine block behind this into which the center finial is fixed?

    The smoke graining on those examples certainly has a decorative appeal. Less so when used on bare wood on the inside of the case!
     
  21. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    No, not a different size. I just some how messed up the dimensions. Will provide better info later.

    I think it’s like what’s on a P&S. Will have to go back & look.

    RM
     
  22. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The scroll on mine is of 1/2" thick wood, it has a lot of glue blocks, the scroll is one piece of wood as you thought, and just veneered to look like 2 separate sides and the center block. This is an Ives and Lewis and while it looks very much like the J&D version it is earlier and is more narrow, or so it seems. It is 14" between the two outside plinths or 16 1/2" out side the plinths measurement. The center plinth stands 3 1/2" and the top of this clock appears to be pretty much unmolested..

    20180918_202157.jpg 20180918_202123.jpg 20180918_202111.jpg
     
  23. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Now that is, again, very interesting info.

    My Jeromes and Darrow (the one with the smoke grained interior, small label and tole panel) has pretty much the same THICKER scrolls, the backs of the tips are not chamfered (as they would be on P&S's) with multiple glue blocks as in yours. My Jerome, Thompson and Co. has the more typical thinner scrolls with chamfered tips. Based upon repeated inspection, I have always been convinced that the scroll top on the Jeromes and Darrow is original but those details have always sort of bugged me. I will try to post some pix of mine at some point.

    RM
     
  24. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks, Jim, that's extremely helpful, especially if RM confirms that his Jerome and Darrow has the same scroll configuration.
     
  25. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It is interesting that the larger Ives iron plate mirror clocks also uses a one piece scroll. But they used a thicker piece of "veneer" in the center making it look like the center plinth was a standalone piece. The back view with the rear part of the plinth will show better the piece of the one part scroll. It is interesting also that it looks like the secondary wood on the scroll might be poplar. It is not entirely clear who built these cases, but it is written elsewhere that Chauncey Jerome was still building cases (for Ives and others) at this time, circa 1822-1824, and Noble Jerome was working with Joseph Ives, if not then. just a bit later. The link between the Jerome and the Ives families was more than just a passing happening in these times. Noble was soon off to develop several wood movements, including his thin plate groaner, and later the 1839 patent movements. Also, both Ives and Jerome's built so called seat board groaners that are substantially different yet quite alike. The Ives have roller pinions while the Jerome version is the more conventional groaner that was sold for years by a number of parties in addition to all the various Jerome partnerships. And Chauncey is said to have developed and built some of the big looking glass cases for Ives before he patented his "bronze looking glass" case.

    20160830_171753.jpg 20160902_133328 (2).jpg 20160902_111450 (2).jpg 0701clives.jpg 20160902_111509.jpg
     
  26. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Here's some pictures of scrolls. I will add I do feel that they are original to clocks shown. I was a bit surprised when I went back to look at them.

    First, the reeded pilaster and splat clocks:

    scroll 2 j&t, j&d.JPG

    The clock on the viewer's left is the Jerome, Thompson and Co (JTC). Note the door is not divided into 3 parts but just 2. It is original and a bit less common in my experience. This clock has been previously reported in depth on the MB. The one on the viewer's right is the Jeromes, Darrow and Co (JDC).

    The JTC clock is a little less deep than the JDC version:

    scroll 6 j&t, j&d.JPG

    Here's the scrolls on the JTC clock:

    scroll 5 j&t.JPG

    The left "horn" broke off but the original piece was glued back in place, not replaced. It is about 5/16" thick (that includes the veneer).

    Also note how the tips of the horns are chamfered or relieved on the JTC:

    scroll 17 j&t.JPG

    On the JDC, the scrolls are thicker, about 7/16" and the tips of the horns are not chamfered:

    scroll 1 j&d.JPG

    This prompted me to look at a couple of my pillar and scrolls. The one on the viewer's right is a Wadsworth & Turner (WT) the one on the left a Seth Thomas (ST):

    scroll 14 w&t.JPG scroll 15 st.JPG scroll 9 st.JPG

    The ST has period but incorrect finials. I believe it to be somewhat earlier in his production as the label does not acknowledge Terry.

    I was surprised to see that the WT has 5/16 " scrolls with chamfered horn tips, the ST has the 7/16 " thick ones without chamfered horn tips. Those pix are on the next post as I have exceeded the photo limit.

    Really a minor detail I had not appreciated before. I'm assuming the thicker scrolls without chamfered horn tips is an earlier feature??

    RM scroll 1 j&t.JPG View attachment 494351
     
  27. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    For some reason, there are 2 random pix at the very end of the above posting I cannot remove.

    So annoying.

    The pic on the viewer's left is the back of the Wadsworth and Turner, the right Seth Thomas:

    scroll 12 w&t.JPG scroll 11 st.JPG

    RM
     
  28. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is an Ives P&S from about 1816. It has been abused more than a bit but it is similar to the Ives and Lewis as well as one of the J&D reeded clocks above. Thick construction, with no cut back/shaping we often see on later P&S

    20180705_191019.jpg 20180705_191456.jpg 20180705_191505.jpg 20180705_190916 (2).jpg
     
  29. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    On the JDC reeded clock, is the scroll veneer bookmatched? The slant of the grain is definitely done in mirror-image, but it's hard to tell whether actually bookmatched. And there is a separate piece making an outline for the center plinth, but in the same plane. It also appears that the scroll top returns are the same 1/2" +/- thickness as the scroll. The ghost on the top of my clock shows this as well.
     
  30. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Bookmatching is when the grain of 2 matching adjoining wood surfaces (solid or veneer) mirror each other, giving the impression of an opened book. See the faux hollow column posted on this thread for an example of this. SO, technically, they're not adjoining surfaces but I guess it's pretty much the same effect.

    It is present on the scrolls of both of my reeded pilaster and splat clocks as well as the ST P&S where it's more of matching "flames" as opposed to the more straight grain on the JTC and JDC.

    Yes, it's about 1/2" thick on the JDC.

    RM
     
  31. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #31 Jim DuBois, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    I notice that the veneer they used on these scrolls seem to be made of 5 pieces of veneer. That suggests they only had access to some very narrow pieces of the figured veneers...close inspection suggests these pieces were either knife cut or peeled rather than sawn. The veneer is usually too thin to have been sawn. While a lot of the veneer was sawn at the time these clocks were made, some of it is quite thin and had to be a shaved veneer. A machine to shave veneer was invented in England. In1806, Marc Isambard Brunel obtained a patent for machine-cutting veneers and thinboards (Pat. no 2968). Using this very thin veneer in the US by 1815+/- suggests they were buying it from England it would seem. It is claimed the technology to shave veneer was first implemented here about 1847+/-.

    Generally, veneer produced on a slicer is in long, narrow-strips.

    In England in 1818, Henry Faveryear developed (Pat. no.4324) a machine for rotary cutting logs but it seems it was not adopted. However, in 1822, a prototype of a ‘peeling machine’ was made by the Vienna Polytechnic Institute. A short time later the process was developed in the USA and as the ‘Improved Patent Rotary Veneer cutter propelled by steam power’, it was used by Richardson and Co. of Philadelphia by 1825. John Dresser of Stockbridge Mass. designed the first rotary veneer-cutting machine that was patented in the United States in 1840.
     
  32. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    From what I can see, it's two pieces on each side of the scroll, and the fifth piece is used for the center "plinth." Very interesting about the early use of peeled veneer. I think I now have more information than I have skill to use it in replicating the scroll. Maybe it will be a winter project.

    What are your opinions about restoring the dial and painting on my clock? At one time, I would have thought they absolutely should be restored, but lately I'm more inclined to leave alone. This also suits my activity level.
     
  33. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    3,018
    680
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I would be more likely to want to "conserve" what you have dial wise and tablet wise rather than "restore" them, if restore means repaint, as it seems to in the lexicon of many. While the clock market is moribund on a good day, repainted dials and repainted tablets are certain to remove much of what ever value there is remaining in our clocks.
     
  34. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    I agree on all points.

    True conservation, IMCO, is preserving/stabilizing what is there and judicious careful replacement of what is not. What those measures are should be well considered and well done. I've seen too much 1/2 a__'ed stuff done that I think detracts rather than enhances.

    Also remember, you have an object that is approaching 200 years old and given the combination of fugitive materials of which it is composed it represents that small % that managed to survive largely intact. Wood which is termite food, burns, destroyed by moisture, etc. Glass breaks and paint doesn't stick to it very well over time. Then it survived past owners who may have altered it by lopping off the crest so that it sat on a mantel or shelf, kids, dogs, moving and so on. At least it won't have the worst fate: falling into the hands of an overzealous NAWCC member. So be nice to it. It's been through a lot to make it this far not too much worse for wear.

    RM
     
    Raymond Rice likes this.
  35. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 30, 2002
    4,119
    58
    48
    Brooklyn
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    What I mean by restore is stabilize what's there and infill the missing parts, definitely not repaint or paint over anything that's still there.
     
    Jim DuBois likes this.
  36. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    Yes, that’s what I assumed you meant. Does look like there’s ongoing lifting & peeling on the dial.

    A lot of the wooden dials, especially the earlier larger ones like yours, seem especially prone to developing “stretch” marks which are horizontal areas of fissuring & loss in the paint. It’s apparently related to expansion & contraction of the wood substrate & that old oil based paint doesn’t.

    Sometimes the areas coalesce & you end up with a dial like yours.

    RM
     
  37. sylvester12

    sylvester12 Registered User

    Oct 17, 2015
    623
    97
    28
    Country Flag:
    I love that square headed banjo that's hanging on the wall going down the stairs, if you don't mind me asking who's the maker.
     
  38. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,345
    945
    113
    Country Flag:
    It’s miniature diamond head banjo by Wayne Cline. They were inspired by the diamond head clocks made by Munroe.

    Cline also made a full sized weight driven version. Both sizes are of really wonderful quality. The other mini banjo is a very clean Waltham.

    RM
     
    sylvester12 likes this.

Share This Page