Fake/Reproduction Clocks

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by wow, May 15, 2015.

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  1. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I, and I know many of you, have been fooled by "fake" clocks. Carriage clocks, Ithaca, Royal Bonn and other Ansonias, several Seth Thomas models, and many others have been reproduced. I must admit that I have been "taken" a few times by purchasing such clocks. I wonder if it would help others, (I know it would help me) if some of you who have been dealing in clocks for many years, would list some of these "fakes" with details and photos of them. Or, perhaps there is a thread which deals with this topic which I have not seen. What do you think?
     
  2. Kevin W.

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    Its a good idea Will but the way some posters are made of fun of, it may be difficult to get people to post. I have made my mistakes and posted them here, in the future i won,t post them here.
    There was a thread i started on this subject, on a Lecoultre clock.
     
  3. eskmill

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    Identifying a "fake" depends on a lot of observable details depending on the workmanship of the fakery. Some are crude attempts such as was done with the Pony Express clocks of recent discussion.

    Too, the "reproduction" clocks of recent production have obvious details that set them apart from "reproduction" examples made fifty or a hundred years ago. Seth Thomas and other prominent Connecticut makers produced reproductions of Willard clocks and labeled them so as to look like the "real McCoy" using the same wood, nails and glue. Over time, use and abuse, they're hard to detect as legitimate "reproductions" and are believed to be fakes when in fact they were obvious reproductions which have lost their identity and to the expert inspection become "fakes."

    I agree with Willie that a series of threads based on photos that reveal clock case and movement details that belie originality. The best are comparison photos showing the difference between "genuine, reproduction and fake" would be helpful.

    The key is experience and knowledge. There's no substitute for the unmistakable odor of real "patina."
     
  4. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    I agree with Les, but some of the "Reproductions" are very well done and if your budget doesn't allow you to buy an original these will serve a purpose until you have the wherewithal.
    Bruce
     
  5. Ontime

    Ontime Registered User

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    I would think it would be very costly & time consuming to to make a fake which can fool someone who is familiar with the details of an original. Luckily there are many images of movements & cases of originals online these days, but putting your hands on a authentic clock before buying one is the surest way to avoid a fake. Now, if someone sells a reproduction as a original... the buyer just simply didn't do any homework.
     
  6. chimeclockfan

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    It's not so practical to judge reproduction or fake clocks in an entire category. Depending on your classifications, a good E. N. Welch black mantel clock could be seen as a fake of a French black slate clock. Then a premium 1900's bell chime bracket clock could be seen as a fake of an old 1700's original. And finally we have those Korean or Japanese copies of old American fare.

    Then what classifies as copying? Look at how each maker basically took off each other's styles and features over the years. Who invented the first chiming tambour? Did Herschede copy Seth Thomas? Did HAC copy Kienzle? Did Tompion copy, too? And what about Winterhalder and Elliott? Does it really matter as long as the clock is well made or comes off as enjoyable to its owner? Or does it matter based on what a high-brow group of auctioneers deem to be "worthy"?

    Just some food for thought. o:)
     
  7. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Ontime, the assumption here is that the prospective purchaser has done his or her study and is prepared to make the personal judgment..................I have seen some very nice reproduction Seth Thomas, Howard etc. that were nice and the price wasn't up in nosebleed heaven !!
     
  8. JDToumanian

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    I haven't been taking pictures of most of the fakes I come across, I'll have to start doing that. At an antiques auction earlier this year I watched in disbelief as two people got into a bidding war over a clock that was very obviously a fairly modern Korean replica... It even said '31 Day' on the dial. Not a fake, but it did fool the uneducated into thinking it was something it was not. It went for $450 or so before tax and the buyers premium. I wouldn't have paid more than $25 for it.

    Right now on eBay there's a hideously fake railroad clock, I emailed the seller to get permission to post the pics here. He thinks it's a real American railroad clock, but it's Japanese with a fake paper dial on it.

    Jon
     
  9. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #9 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, May 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Couple of points.

    A distinction is not being made between clocks made and sold as honest reproductions and those intended to deceive.

    Stennis, Campos and Burleigh made wonderful repro's that are quite collectible, and valuable, in their own right. Their work is now being faked!

    A bit of a naïve statement was made here. There are most certainly "fake" clocks as well as of other valuable antiques made to the highest standards which have and will fool people. It's the cornerstone of the antiques business. I won't say more, but there are examples out there that have taken curators, dealers and buyers hook line and sinker. Many times, sadly, they were sold knowingly but with the confidence they were so good, most people don't know and would probably not figure it out. And yes, they were expensive and time consuming to fake but boy was the return worth it.

    And if your production costs are low enough and you're ramped up to produce volume, it can be worth it, too. Look at all of those Chinese "swingers" and cloisonné carriage clocks.

    Knowledge is your best tool. Look at objects, study and be very skeptical. Frankly, you need much, much more than the MB to get that knowledge and it takes years and is an ongoing process. Like the old bromide, "You learn something new every day".

    And re: the 2 fools who got into a bidding war and the greater one who paid $450 for an Asian repro at auction. One man's trash is another's treasure I guess. Well, I too have foolishly gotten into get into pissing contests at auction. I'm sure the clock will be posted on the MB in the near future along with the myriad of other like stuff with the request to "date it" or to give a model name...I would suggest for the latter calling it the "The Junk". Of course I mean like the traditional Chinese boat.

    RM
     
  10. R. Croswell

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    Some years ago I had a friend, now deceased, who auctioned and sold all sorts of used "stuff". Someone came into his store one day and my friends young son was there alone so the customer asked the young boy where his dad was. The boy replied that his dad was in the barn out back making antiques!

    RC
     
  11. ClipClock

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    Thats SO funny :D
     
  12. JDToumanian

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    #12 JDToumanian, May 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2015
    Well the seller replied, in a rather grumpy tone, that he does NOT want me posting his pictures for discussion here. Hey buddy, it's not MY fault your clock is a fake! Anyway, this will disappear after 90 days or so but we can see it for now:

    Live ebay link removed

    There are so many things wrong with this clock...

    - The style. I've never seen a round gallery style American railroad clock except for slave clocks. Most American railroad clocks were either drop octagons or large regulators.
    - The dial. You wouldn't see a building, city or other location printed on a dial as clocks would not necessarily return to the same location after service. It looks like the fake paper dial has been carefully weathered... Most clocks don't have a steel dial pan, so the rust around the winding arbor bushing seems out of place.
    - It's almost identical to another fake discussed here a few years ago: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?108793
    - The railroad logo. This would not be in color. Most railroads did not even print a logo on the dial, preferring to just print the name like 'Southern Pacific Lines' or initials like 'AT&SF'.
    - It's not even an Ansonia. I'm not good enough to be sure without seeing the movement, but I think this is a Japanese clock. The wood and the hands don't seem like Ansonia to me. I think the Ansonia label on the back is a carefully aged fake but I could be wrong.

    Jon
     
  13. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Thanks, Jon.
    This is what I hoped for in my original post. I now know that Fake SP clocks are out there, and I know what to look for. It would be very helpful to me and, no doubt, many others readers, if more fakes like this were exposed. If you have photos of and information about others, please post them.
     
  14. wow

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  15. scottmiami

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    Noticed quite a few in the RO Schmitt auction over the weekend: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=campos+clock&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=33143-6603&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1
     
  16. Sooth

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    I don't know exactly where I stand on this issue. It can get very complicated. For the most part, I've done my research, seen tens of thousands of clocks, and I can usually spot a fake from across the room, but as Mr. Markowitz above has pointed out, there's an entire world of high-end fakes that are specially made to fool even the experts. I am actually building such a clock at the moment for my own use, and I'm trying to find the best way to "mark it" as such. The problem is that it's nearly impossible. Let's say for example that I decide to letter-stamp the backboard with my name and date: nothing is stopping an unscrupulous dealer 80 years from now from simply scraping that area down to remove the traces. I can apply a nice reproduction paper label, name, date, city, etc: same issue, it can be scraped and removed.

    It may sound silly, but it's just the reality of how some antiques places do business. One of my close clockmaker friends has made his own fake Banjo clocks and NH mirror clocks (aged and distressed to look authentic), often with custom movements, or assembled from mixed antique parts. These were signed/marked with his own paper labels. Later, however, he saw some being sold at auctions as real early 1800s clocks, with the labels having been removed, or additional patina added strategically.

    When all you need to do is swap a few parts to make a clock look older or more correct, the difference can translate into a few thousand dollars.

    A true collector would see some of the incorrect details purposefully built into the design (wrong tooth design, or incorrect movement type for the maker, size of glue blocks, dial design, etc), but the majority of collectors wouldn't know the difference.

    It gets even scarier when you start to deal with clocks worth 10,000$ or more. You REALLY need to know what you're buying. That goes without saying, but there are still a lot of collectors who make expensive mistakes. Some of the fakes use old period movements housed in rare and expensive (fake) cases.

    A nice example is this fake Elnathan Taber Coffin Clock seen on the Antiques Roadshow:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200603A39.html

    Fake signature, fake aging, incorrect finish, poor upper fret design, wrong wood, glue blocks, etc. But how many clock collectors here would know this? Coffin clocks are exceptionally rare, and some have sold for over 20,000$. This also isn't the only clock like this I've seen. I have another one that is very similar in my files (which also had an incorrect oval pendulum aperture). There are also several fake Simon Willard shelf and Banjo clocks.

    The original maker probably made it simply for his own collection/use, or as a gift, but any traces of the original maker's name or where it may have been made are no longer there, and the clocks have been sold at auction "as-is".
     
  17. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    There used to be a lot of reproduction fusee dial clocks around in the UK
    I got caught out when I bought one a few years ago
    It has a thick cast bezel with the hinge on the left
    Every genuine dial clock I have seen has it on the right
    The movement is marked London 6472
     
  18. leeinv66

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    To be fare, that one doesn't look much like a Royal Bonn. It looks much more like a reproduction Oriental clock. A little research goes a long way when buying clocks you are not familiar with!
     
  19. Bill Ward

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    Did this run for a full 8 days? We used to be able to tell the repro Chinese movements because they only ran a few days; I wonder if this is still true?
    The back of this clock did not look right.
    When the internet was new, there used to be a website from a Chinese company which listed thousands of "repro" clocks. They mostly looked vaguely French. The tipoff, though, was that they were all made up of a few stock parts, put together in various, sometimes bizarre ways. Another tipoff is when the market seems to be flooded with a particular type or model of clock. For example, about 15 years ago, there was a glut of small clocks embedded in glass lenses making up a kind of sphere; the movements were like very large pocket watches. I attended an auction in New Jersey which featured about 20 of these; I was amazed, because I'd never even seen one before.
     
  20. Sooth

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    Bill, your post reminds me a lot of my early days on eBay back around 2005-ish. I remember seeing a lot of fake clocks at the time that were VERY clearly fakes. I remember seeing a lot of these octagon or hexagon table clocks, as well as many "Eifel Tower" skeleton clocks, and a plethora of "Doric" style column clocks with roses on the tablets. I also remember seeing a whole bunch of these sort of fish-bowl clocks. All out of China, and all were fairly poorly made with brass that just didn't quite look right (sort of a greenish brown tone to it). There were others, but thankfully I have forgotten what they looked like.
     
  21. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Bill, it does run for 8 days, and keeps good time. Not too bad, mechanically.

    Here are some photos a fake blinking eye that has been showing up on ebay recently:
     

    Attached Files:

  22. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Bob Schmitt with Danny Horan, as well others who conduct quality specialist horology auctions, often include Campos' work as well as those by other skilled craftsmen (eg in the same auction, a wonderful diamond head banjo by Wayne Cline). They are reproductions but they are desirable as wonderful clocks and time pieces in their own right.

    There was a very nice Bulletin article about some of those guys: http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/1970/articles/1977/191/191_571.pdf

    By the way, in the auction you linked too, there was a reproduction sun (or midday) cannon sold. Look at page 582 of this article...I think it was by that guy!

    Also included in that same auction were clocks by Conlon who made reproductions earlier in the 20th century in the Boston area. By the way, he was reputed to be a good "faker" as well.

    RM
     
  23. JDToumanian

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    The auction for this fake has ended now so the link can be posted:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/171789710326

    I can't believe it sold!

    Jon
     
  24. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Well, it doesn't look fake to me, except for a very crappy paper dial over the original. I also try not to buy any clocks when the movement can't be seen/inspected. I wouldn't pay 200$ for that, though.
     
  25. R. Croswell

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    I can understand why the seller did not want to give you permission to use his pictures. Consider yourself lucky if he does not sue you! That seller has a very large 100% positive feedback and the item description is pretty clear and makes no claim that the clock is anything other than an attractive vintage clock with the Virginian Railway logo. An on-line auction is basically what you see is what you get. There is nothing wrong with selling a reproduction or copy by any other name so long as it is not represented as being something it is not. Reproductions and copies often have significant value to collectors as such.

    As for this specific item, not something I would pay that much for but perhaps to a Virginian Railway fan it might be a desirable piece in its own right. It would be a mistake in my opinion for one to conclude that an item is a fake (or to conclude that it is not) even if one considers oneself an "expert" in such matters without actually inspecting the item. An authentic piece that has had damaged or missing parts replaced over the years is not a fake. A "fake" (in my opinion) is an item that is not authentic that has been intentionally dressed up for the purpose of deception. I do not think the seller misrepresented this item. I hope the buyer is pleased with his/her purchase. eBay has a money back if item is not as described policy.

    RC
     
  26. scottmiami

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    Very cool, thanks for the link RM. On the page following it, the Wagon spring clock is also very interesting.
     
  27. JDToumanian

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    #27 JDToumanian, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015
    I am aghast at this response. I stand by my remarks 100%... Did you even read them? Did you look at the link to the nearly identical fake "colored passenger agent" clock, or do you think that one is real too? Whether or not the clock is Asian or a genuine Ansonia is immaterial. That clock is not an original RR clock, a replica, or a reproduction. It is an adulterated antique intended to deceive the unknowing into believing that it is a genuine railroad clock that once hung in a depot or railroad office. <-- I emphasize that point because it is the crux of the issue. It is the purpose of this thread. I do not believe the seller misrepresented the item, I believe he was fooled by it, just as you apparently are. Which surprises me! I have tremendous respect for the knowledge of this group. I do not consider myself an expert here, as I am not a clock man by trade. I am a railroader, and apparently two decades of that, being Locomotive Engineer Mentor, Chairman, and Griever of Our Brotherhood, volunteering at two different railroad museums, and being around and working on dozens of genuine railroad clocks, has allowed me to identify as patently obvious, something that is apparently not to people who only work on clocks.

    As for him suing me, that would be a neat trick! :screwball:

    Jon
     
  28. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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    My pleasure.

    Howzabowt them repro ripple fronts, too!

    That was truly an example of reviving what was believed to be a lost art.

    All the makers mentioned, alas, many now gone, were a clear indication that traditional fine craftsmanship was still alive and well in the 1970's...as it is today.

    And they would be tickled to know that they're work is also being faked.

    RM
     
  29. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    Jon,

    This type of clock is not in my wheelhouse, but I think you have a valid argument. Because I have spent a fair amount of time researching labels (though for a different maker), I did some Googling to see what I could find. The first thing worth mentioning is that Timesavers sells a reproduction label that's identical to this one (even down to the "Form No. 88" in the upper left corner). Another thing is that all (with one exception) of the Ansonia gallery clock examples I could find with a label on the back had a label that covered the entire back. The exception featured this same small square label, and the clock was described as a "Highly Collectable Winchester Wall Clock." It sold for a ridiculously high amount. What troubles me about both of these examples is that the corners are torn off, but I see no evidence for the differential oxidation I'd expect. To me it appears that the areas that were covered by the corners have experienced the same amount of exposure (and resulting oxidation) as the rest of the backboard. For this to be true, the corners had to have been torn off a long time ago, or the label is an artificially aged later addition. The last thing about the label on the clock that's the subject of this thread is that there are strange "bleed" patterns in the ink. Some of the bleeding is to the left, some to the right, even in letters in the same word (see "ANSONIA"). I don't know how that could happen at the printers, but I could see it being an artifact of the artificial "aging" process.

    In addition to Googling, I also looked through the Ansonia thread (all 632 posts!) on the message board and didn't see anything that would help resolve this problem. Was a bit disappointed to see so many clocks without accompanying photos of the movement and label. In my opinion, each posting of a clock should include photos of the movement and label for completeness, but that's a topic for a different thread.

    Lastly, for what it's worth, I couldn't find any Ansonia gallery clocks with these hands.

    It would be wonderful if some of the Ansonia collectors would offer some thoughts on the appropriateness or originality of the label. In particular, did Ansonia actually use this label? If so, on what kind of clock? Is the Timesavers label an exact copy or just a close approximation?

    Mike
     
  30. R. Croswell

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    #30 R. Croswell, May 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2017
    Yes I did read everything you posted and I did follow the links which are quite interesting before posting. Sorry if you were offended. I'm not suggesting that the item in question is "original", and original with some replaced parts, a "reproduction" that's not quite like the references cited, or a fake designed to deceive and rip off the unsuspecting buyer (or perhaps an uninformed seller). That's beyond my pay grade as I an NOT an authority on RR clocks and do not pretend to be. I do however question if anyone can make an absolutely irrefutable determination about a piece from a few images on an eBay auction listing alone.

    What concerns me most is when we identify a specific seller and state that what he is selling is a fake - i.e. that he is selling an item that is not genuine and is intended to deceive the potential buyer into thinking he is getting something that he is not. I believe that could impugn the character and reputation of the seller who, as you point out, may not know what he has. I have no problem speculating anonymously about the authenticity of an item acquired from some unnamed source but I find it troubling when we declare that an item being sold by Jack Frost (or whomever) IS a fake. As a local elected official I deal with liabilities and potential liabilities all the time. We have a team of lawyers to keep us out of trouble. Perhaps I am over sensitive, but this frightens me.

    RC
     
  31. JDToumanian

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    I guess I bristled at the suggestion that my remarks were so egregiously false that they warranted litigation against me, but I see how someone may be a little surprised that a fake made from a genuine antique could be recognized at a casual glance... These fakes, the Virginian 'Commercial Agent' and the Southern Pacific 'Colored Passenger Agent', demonstrate the faker's basic lack of knowledge of American railroad practices, and at the same time demonstrate some knowledge of foreign railroad practices. Specifically, British railroads where these fakes bear some resemblance to known fakes of British railroad clocks:

    http://www.railwayclocks.net/Fake-Railway-Clocks.html

    http://www.railroadiana.org/fakes/pgFakes_Clocks.php

    So where the fake British railway clocks can be quite hard to detect - because they follow known British railway practice, these fake American railroad clocks are easy to detect because they do not. They demonstrate a lazy, slapdash effort. If they did a little homework besides just downloading images of railroad logos to print on the dials, they might have been able to produce a fake that could fool the railroad clockmakers themselves. For example, by painting fake Montgomery or other proprietary dials and putting them on old Seth Thomas drop octagons, then faking the maintenance cards and engraving fake inventory numbers into the back board. But these fakes are no more a railroad clock than a 30-hour ogee is a Willard. Even if it has an aged paper dial that says "Willard & Sons, America."

    Jon
     
  32. R. Croswell

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    I recall someone, perhaps it was here or in the journal, stating that most of the Willard banjo clocks in today's market are fakes although a vintage Willard reproduction or copy can still be desirable so long as it is not represented as something it is not. I doubt that many serious RR buffs would be taken in by a fake or repro RR clock.............at least not more than once if they read your comments.

    Have re you ever considered writing an article for the journal about RR clocks an recognizing fakes and reproductions?

    RC
     
  33. Sooth

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    RC: Regarding Willard Clocks I recall reading a comment that went something like this: Of the hundreds he made, thousands still exist today. :%
     
  34. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    That's a good one!
     
  35. JDToumanian

    JDToumanian Registered User
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    It had never occurred to me, but maybe someday I will. I wonder how I could do it without spending a ton of money buying fakes? Because for every obvious fake like the ones we've discussed here, there are several more that I find suspicious but am unsure. Those are the ones I'd like to carefully study... I wouldn't want to write an article of speculation, I would want to be sure.

    For example, there's a Santa Fe S.T. No.2 on an online auction, it's been there for ages, years, the seller just keeps relisting it for $2,650. It looks old, and has the AT&SF Montgomery dial. But there's a lot wrong... No inventory numbers, no maintenance card. The dial is paper (they were almost always painted, Santa Fe did them in-house with a silk screen) and the door glass has blue & gold "AT&SF RR" painted on it, which doesn't seem original... But it could be I suppose. The seller says "I cannot verify that this clock ever hung in a railroad facility." Maybe that says it all right there, but I have actually considered buying it, just to find out for sure. Or maybe I could go see it in person without buying...

    Jon
     
  36. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Are fake railroad clocks a world wide phenomenon?
    There appear to be quite a few fake British railroad clocks in the UK
     
  37. JDToumanian

    JDToumanian Registered User
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    Yes I'm afraid so. The ones in this thread are obvious and crappy but I've seen railroad fakes that are really good.

    Jon
     
  38. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I believe that most scholarly writing like this would begin by researching documentation and publications that have been previously done and compiling an extensive bibliography of creditable references. It would be a monumental task to do this based only on one's own experience, knowledge and assumptions. Such an article would not likely attempt to identify all or even most of the fakes/reproductions ever produced but rather detail the important things one should look for and what would raise a question and what would raise a "red flag". Some of the important points such as where station locations were or were not usually/always/never printed on the dial and other facts better know in railroad circles than in horological circles. In any work of this type it is essential to verify and document the references cited. i.e. one may "know" something to be a fact but an article for publication also needs documentation that basically answers the question "how does the writer know that something is fact rather than assumption. It would be more than a notion and would take quite a bit of time to do properly but would be a valuable contribution to the horological world.

    RC
     
  39. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I think many examples that may be referred to as "fakes", are simply embellished clocks made by people in the more recent past who do not share our high standards. With all the reproduction decals and such that were made in the 1970s and 80s, people just placed these on their clocks thinking they were something that added to the clock's appearance. Same with banjos in the mid-20th c. - perhaps without the research materials available today, "Willard" was added to dials here and there as they were repainted, just because Willard was the inventor. And the people at the time thought the added signature looked really swell. No thinking ahead to deceive folks in the future.

    Just my theories, I could be wrong. I don't read too much into the topic, and I'm not interested in (too expensive) the high-end antiques where high quality fakes would be an issue. Maybe I'm different than most - if I see a certain type of clock is reproduced extensively, I'm simply not interested in that type of clock. Maybe some see reproductions as flattery, but I never liked them.
     
  40. JDToumanian

    JDToumanian Registered User
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    I appreciate the advice RC, I've been thinking about it all week. I like the idea of a broad scope article for the spotting of obvious fakes... As you say, an article of specifics for every railroad would be virtually impossible. I could also write a separate article, maybe someday even a book, specifically on clocks of the Santa Fe railway, as that is my primary area of railroad clock expertise. However, even there, extensive research would be necessary. Though I may be able to get permission to access company archives, which could result in a work of unprecedented scope and accuracy. Dare to dream... Where do people find the time?

    Jon
     
  41. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User
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    If this thread is specific to American railroads, then maybe I wont have anything to add. However, for British and Indian Railroad (because Indian system evolved from there), presence of inventory number and maintenance card on dial or on case is not a sine qua non. However older the British/Indian railroad clock, more the possibility of the presence of these two, atleast inventory number is almost always present in older clocks. Maintenance date is etched on the inside of the dial. The station or office where it was hung was definitely written on the case or on dial itself.

    Later dials (circa 1940s) maynot contain stock number as lot of stocks were either exchanged among depots or between offices. SO only paper transactions and trails are there. However I have one dial where old stock number seems to have been crossed and new one written.

    It would be good to see a book on American Railroads. maybe you can take Simon's (of railwayclocks.net) help and out a chapter on comparison with British railroads as well!! If railroad pocket watches are also to be considered, I can send picstures. PM me your email id, if you are interested.

    Thanks
     
  42. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Go for it! Time is elusive, one does not need to find it as it is here and now. All one needs do is grab hold of it as it rushes past. Such a project will evolve and the focus and scope refined as it starts to come together. The important thing is to start.

    RC
     
  43. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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  44. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    There is a recent listing for a Lenzkirsch "Mermaid" being sold from Germany that is stated to be a reproduction. This clock is so complicated in the case and all the metal trim. It is really amazing to me that this is being faked. So much work must have been required to make this. It's still a fantastic looking clock. I have noticed that there have been a few of these offered over that past several months. I suspect that they are all fakes.
     
  45. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    I saw that clock listed too, Jeff. It's really nice. From a distance, first thought is the clock was refinished. Then, in the close-up photos, the wood looks new. The bronze mounts look really authentic. I wonder if the mounts were from an old, damaged case.

    Once I asked someone if he could manufacture one of the raised square-shaped bronze mounts (a different clock I have, but probably the same piece on the Mermaid located on the base of the top side finial). He refused, saying it would be too expensive and not worth the cost. So, I suppose these things would have to be produced in some quantity to make them cost effective?

    If the movement is old, and taken from a case that let's say for example was eaten by woodworm, what better way to re-case the old movement? If the movement was newer, that would turn me off.

    Once I viewed a Lenzkirch Mermaid that was at an auction house near me. That clock had a dark stain, and the mounts were not too shiny. This was maybe 3 or so years ago, and the hammer price of that clock to me was too expensive.
     
  46. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    This Skinner auction ended, there are two clocks in it. The Seth Thomas regulator case looks new, maybe refinished. I asked opinion of some people i know, and they say these two clocks are repros, wondering how one would know for sure?
     

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