Fake Railroad Clock

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by NJS, Feb 21, 2018.

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  1. RAK

    RAK Registered User
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    Ugh!

    I thought I was taken for a ride when I bought my first Ithaca advertising clock online and the dial board turned out to be brand new (of course, no returns).

    Well I can only hope that these stupid prices reflected a couple of high end decorator types looking for the next big thing to gussy up basement bars in suburban McMansions. It's enough to make you barf (can I say that on this msg board) when you think that one of the nicest Sidney Advertising Clocks that has come to market in last 20 years sold in 2018 for the paltry sum of $7,500 and at least two of these "Cigar Clocks" went for $9,000 or more!

    I'll say it again, I don't know what conversation happened between the previous owner of these clocks and the auction house for them to guarantee that these clocks were made in the 1920s. They should be congratulated for sticking these clocks in with a selection of nicer advertising antiques thereby giving these clocks some credibility. Good marketing I guess.

    There is some good news now that the auction is over... we will probably never see any of these clocks again, unless of course another barn full turns up which I guess isn't impossible since these sold for such nice prices. o_O
     
  2. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    apparently, it isn't possible to go back to the actual auctioneer's web site to see previous sales. for those of you reading this that have no idea how to look up what we are discussing here, you can go to liveauctioneers, past auctions, then search for "cigars advertising clock". that should bring up most if not all of them.

    i had saved all of them previously before the sale. for the heck of it, after tallying it all up, the combined total sales worked out to $143,500.00!!!! to put it another way, that otherwise really awesome jeweler's regulator all mucked up with this baloney sold for a whopping 9 grand. as a perspective, in the same week, a gorgeous Gilbert #9 floor model jeweler's regulator in a walnut cabinet sold at tom harris for $1750.00. what the heck has the world come to?

    Old Abe cigars, 1920's Advertising Clock on LiveAuctioneers

    Walnut Gilbert #9 Standing Regulator on LiveAuctioneers

    i really can't imagine many better authorities than bob(rm) and jim when it comes to authentication. just by reading what they have to say in this thread and many others, its pretty apparent they know what they are talking about with plenty of experience to back up those opinions. i found it also rather apparent by the sellers comments here that he seems to know what we know. his comments seem very diversionary and defensive when i read them. perhaps he simply doesn't care and is laughing all the way to the bank.
     
  3. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    Not to leave anyone out, bob(RAK) is obviously very knowledgeable too and i think he posted many spot on comments about the subject at hand. it is probably also important to note that the auction house has a buyer's commission of 17-22%. i don't know how much was charged to the seller for the privelege of putting these in this auction, but i guess for the purposes of this discussion, it is irrelevant.
     
  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Its a great site to see what clocks have sold for. You need to register so you can see what a item sells for.
     
  5. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    "This clock is guaranteed to have been created between 1920 and 1930. It has been preserved back to as original as possible."

    It should be interesting to see how these claims fare in our legal system, where I suspect some of these buyers and the auction house and the seller will end up.
     
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  6. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Notice that they only guarantee a date of creation (which I think is optimistic; I believe that they are later). Not that they are in anyway authentic or anything else that the seller has been claiming.

    It would be interesting to review any other "auction conditions".

    I have seen instances where auctioneers may make a statement about condition, origin, etc, but also state that the ultimate onus is upon the buyer to carefully examine and verify the piece.

    I have been to a number of auctions where an object was, in the opinion of many of us previewers, not as stated. Some of us raised this with the auctioneer. They then made an announcement at the start of the auction about the lot(s) in question making a proviso that potential buyers should examine them carefully and "you decide" if you wanted to still bid.

    Furthermore, most will also maintain that all sales are final unless an item was grossly misrepresented. Well, they made their statements in "good faith" and so nothing was misrepresented? Define gross misrepresentation. Sort of like 20 years ago being asked to "define" "having sex with that woman"

    Last but not least. Someone has to bring an action. I know of examples where either a dealer or auctioneer quietly offers a full or partial refund to avoid fuss. Other times, the cost of legal action doesn't make it worthwhile to pursue when the cost of the object is considered.

    My prediction is that nothing, at least public, will happen.

    These clocks will ride off into the sunset with their happy new block head oblivious owners.

    The consigner will be pleased not only with his windfall but he and those who permitted them to be displayed at NAWCC functions will see it as a strong rebuke to anyone who questioned the clocks.

    That Mattress John, or his spirit, is laughing so hard that he is pissing in his celestial bloomers.

    RM
     
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  7. RAK

    RAK Registered User
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    Thanks Brian! I appreciate the kind words.

    BTW, I think your right... the previous owner is probably at this very moment lighting a cigar with a burning hundred dollar bill and planning a nice long, all expense paid vacation. Go figure, I was sure he was going to get stuck with these clunkers. o_O

    Bob
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Ditto.

    RM
     
  9. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    I have to wonder how many sold? Some fair number only apparently had a single bid, most if not all seemed to have received that opening bid online well before the live auction start. It also seems peculiar that all of them "sold?" At the minimum required bid, some fair number seem to be priced well out of relationship to some of the "better clocks." Not certain that better is a proper description, perhaps "less bad" is more appropriate. Having studied auctions and have worked with several auctioneers, this "auction" and the results on these clocks invites a certain degree of skepticism.
     
  10. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    I did wonder about that myself. In general, I’m sure it happens that when there is a reserve, someone knowing that can place an online bid prior to the auction to try to drive up the price
     
  11. Raymond Rice

    Raymond Rice Registered User
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    For your interest and edification, I am attaching a picture of a cigar label I purchased, back in March, on evilbay. It was listed as "NOS"--which in this case I suspect means "New Open Stock". (It seems to me --ever the sceptic--that its a little too pristine.)
    Additionally, in perusing the internet, the only reference I could find for W. E. Haines was in the US Census for 1941 showing him residing in Abbottstown, PA. For a cigar manufacturer who could front the money for all those advertising clocks, he sure kept a low profile.

    I'm also sceptical of the alleged pattern of auction "bidding".
    Ray Rice

    P3170001.JPG
     
  12. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    If I understood the auction site, before the live auction part started, there was a minimum bid required to online bid. I think that was $1000. And strangely enough, it seems there was at least a $1000 bid on every clock and higher minimum bids on the more valuable clocks. That might well be considered a reserve price if the bids were by other than independent bidders not connected with the gallery or the consigner. Some states have laws against such behavior if it were the consigner or house making those bids in lieu of setting a true reserve and advertising the auction as "with reserve."

    It would be interesting to see the bid history by bidder on each of the items and the bidding history of the "winning bidders" of all the clocks. It would be even more interesting to know the winning bidders names. But, that information would certainly be protected, as it should be, unless skullduggery is proven afoot by other actions. All of this is well outside our business but still interesting to consider. Back to my duck theory.
     
  13. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #113 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, May 13, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
    My oh my.

    That's a rather damning bit of evidence. Guess we know where Mattress John got them labels he slapped on the backs of those clocks.

    Actually NOS means "new old stock". That is, it is old but was never used.

    Some of that stuff can be rather pristine.

    People love to use old and especially unused "NOS" labels.

    There is a well known faker that used to buy some real crappy stuff. When asked why, he was buying it for a great often dated repair label. Sometimes a repairer would use a watch paper for that purpose.

    I have a rather plain clock with a repair label indicating it was repaired by the famous maker Bond of Boston. Guess they did general repairs, too. Induced much salivation. And not for the clock.

    RM
     
  14. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Ray
    I have always thought of NOS meaning New Old Stock meaning someone has a load of stock sitting, forgotten, in a warehouse for years and they are are now trying to sell it
     
  15. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    I wouldn't be surprised if many of these clocks had hidden reserves that weren't met. I noticed the owner of these is an NAWCC member, Curious if he will chime in again now the auction is over.
     
  16. Raymond Rice

    Raymond Rice Registered User
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    Guys, I am well aware that "NOS" means "New Old Stock"--I was being facetious when I suggested that it meant, in this case, "New Open Stock". I suspect that there is a newly minted supply of these labels out there. This particular label would be extremely easy to create.
    Ray Rice
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    He did earlier on this thread.

    Silence now.

    RM
     
  18. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    well, i wouldn't be surprised if your theory is correct jim.

    i think i remember most clocks having a 500.00 minimum, some had 1000. i do remember when i checked it about 4 days before the auction, all of them had exactly one bid on them except a couple of the more expensive ones had 2 or 3 bids and were at that time 1500, and one was at 2000.

    you can actually go to the liveauctioneers web site, click on each clock and see what the original starting price was and how many bids until the final sale price. most seem to have 7+ bids on them. one of the jewelers regulators had 18 bids and the other had 14.
     
  19. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Those silly cigar clocks keep coming back like a bad penny.

    2 of them have been available on-line for sale for quite some time, undergoing price reductions.

    I'm linking to a COMPLETED on-line listing for one of them:

    W E Haines cigar store advertiser clock | eBay

    I feel that it is important for folks to see this listing as it is one of the few instances when pix of aspects of one of these clocks are available that I feel would demonstrate their spurious nature including that shipping label. As posted earlier on this thread, those labels were available at some point as NOS on the same on-line site. They are for a short lived obscure PA cigar maker? Who had the advertising budget to have them made by a furniture company? And the label for the cigar maker, not the furniture maker, is glued to the back of the clock, not the shipping crate? Please. It is also interesting when one notes the sale price compared to what it was originally when first offered on the site and what they supposedly achieved at the recent Showtime auction.

    Also see this previous thread:

    I have proof the cigar advertising clocks sold at auction are real

    By the way, the title is completely "tongue in cheek".

    RM
     
  20. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i kind of like that one.... a bit much, but nice movement and one could remove the side wings
     
  21. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    the random pieces of scrap wood holding it together on the back....not to mention the reclaimed wood with in the "wings"....ie: the holes along the top that go to nothing. how is it possible these are not real:???:!!! lol


    for this one sold for on ebay, i would guess somebody really took a bath on it.
     
  22. Cookie 2006

    Cookie 2006 Registered User

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    Regarding fake clocks

    I have noticed the massive increase in the omega clocks being sold at auction for silly money
    one auction house has five or six in every sale knowing full well they are fake
     
  23. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Well gee. These clocks were made by a furniture company. Aren't those the materials a professional cabinet maker would choose and the methods they would employ??

    RM
     
  24. Levi Hutchins

    Levi Hutchins Registered User

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    It was clearly a highly resilient method of construction that allowed the clocks to be shipped without needing to be crated.

    Just slap on a label and send them on their diaspora, only to re-assemble decades later, distressed labels attesting to their sundry travails.
     
  25. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    In the UK Metamec was an offshoot of furniture maker Jentique
     

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