fake or real ?????

[oxford]

found in a box of parts, 21s coin case heavy 6.3 oz. serial number 61032

real mcoy or fake still would like date made....

attached photos

thanks

 

[MartyR]

Pritchard mentions a "Girard Watch Co" watch, serial #47565 (fairly close to your number), which she describes as an "American style watch in a large coin silver hunting case" which was made by Schwob Freres of Chaux de Fonds in Switzerland. This company, says Pritchard, had "a long history of legal fakery". The trademark "The Girard Watch" was registered by Schwob in 1892.

So I think your watch is a classic "Swiss fake", a watch purporting to be a good quality American watch, which it isn't.

That doesn't make it worthless by any means; it has an interesting place in horological history and may in fact be as good a watch technically as the one it was pretending to be

 

[Dr. Jon]

Note that the balance is partially cut to make it look like temperature compensated. No American made watch that I know of did that.

 

[MartyR]

On the other hand, why did they choose such a French name if they were pretending this was an American watch

 

[jfl]

Another opinion is that this is a 11-15 jewel ~ 18 size watch made in the American style as an inexpensive alternative. I don't think this qualifies as a Swiss fake as the jewels do not look fake and the name is not intended to deceive. I suggest coming up with a different nomenclature for this type of watch than a "Swiss Fake". JFL

 

[Kent]

It is really quite a simple concept:

If the balance rim contains screws and is partially cut through to appear as though it was a compensated balance (which it isn't), then it is pretending to be something that it is not. It is a fake, plain and simple. It doesn't matter what the rest of the watch looks like, nor what name is on it, nor where it was sold. If it was made in Switzerland, then it is a Swiss fake.

Modest watches, created and marketed worldwide, as inexpensive alternatives to more sophisicated watches do not have imitation compensated balances. Knowledgeable people do not refer to these as fakes unless their plate design and names closely approximate those of watches of higher grade built by well-known manufacturers.

Having said that, Swiss fake watches in good repair can keep time within a couple of minutes a day, which is adequate for most purposes. Some collectors seek these out and make a nice collection of them.

 

[ben_hutcherson]

Note that the balance is partially cut to make it look like temperature compensated. No American made watch that I know of did that.

I have a low-numbered(~4000) Illinois "Miller" grade keywind that has a partially cut rim on a bimetallic screwed balance.

That's not to mention the thousands of early '57 model Walthams that had solid bimetallic screwed balances, although these do not have even half cuts in the rim. I have a low grade Marion(G.A. Reed) that has a similar solid bimetallic balance. The Marion is even loaded up with a whole bunch of gold screws.

 

[Kent]

Ben:

The point refers to partially cut balances, not uncut ones.

I'm curious about your Illinois "Miller" grade, can you post a picture of the balance? Is it typical of Illinois balances of that era?

Thanks,
Kent

 

[ben_hutcherson]

Kent,

Here are a couple of photos of the balance from a few different perspectives.

As far as it being typical or not of Illinois of that era-I have no idea as I'm not an Illinois collector and it's the earliest one I've owned or handled. Fred Hansen, John Cote, or Dave Coatsworth might have a better handle on whether or not it's correct. Given the low grade nature of the movement, it honestly doesn't surprise me.

View attachment 4901

 

[Kent]

So, do you think that there was a legitimate reason for the half-cuts in the balance rim or was it intended to simulate a compensated balance?