Fake or not

Paul1975

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Hi collegues can we talk here about an original early clock ore not al advise welcome am from belgium

20210711_223709.jpg 20210711_223705.jpg 20210711_223701.jpg 20210711_223654.jpg 20210711_214551.jpg
 

new2clocks

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Hi collegues can we talk here about an original early clock ore not al advise welcome am from belgium

View attachment 662543 View attachment 662544 View attachment 662545 View attachment 662546 View attachment 662547
Paul, welcome to the forum.

Your clock was made by Mauthe, a prolific German clock maker. Based on the trademark, your clock was most likely made from 1900 to the beginning of WWI. In my opinion, your clock was made closer to 1900.

It appears to be all original, but I look forward to the comments of others.

Regards.
 
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Paul1975

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Paul, welcome to the forum.

Your clock was made by Mauthe, a prolific German clock maker. Based on the trademark, your clock was most likely made from 1900 to the beginning of WWI. In my opinion, your clock was made closer to 1900.

It appears to be all original, but I look forward to the comments of others.

Regards.
Thanks for the help
 

Yahagi

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You can't see much in these photos, but I'll risk the conclusion that the clock is based on a Mauthe movement, but exceptionally from the Bregenz plant in Austria.
In my opinion, however, it was created closer to the outbreak of the great war.
Tatiana has a lot of knowledge here.
 

Paul1975

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You can't see much in these photos, but I'll risk the conclusion that the clock is based on a Mauthe movement, but exceptionally from the Bregenz plant in Austria.
In my opinion, however, it was created closer to the outbreak of the great war.
Tatiana has a lot of knowledge here.
Thank you for the help
 

Yahagi

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Probably not.
This is FM… not FMS. That missing letter "S" seems to matter here
 
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JTD

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Definitely not Japanese. This is one of the marks used by Friedrich Mauthe, as has been said above.

JTD
 
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Royce

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Based on the latest version of the Friedrich Mauthe Trademark Index that I have (v.2) that was developed by Oled, I agree with new2clocks that it was made near 1900. According to this index, the only Eagle Trademark with FM, instead of FMS, was shown as Trademark #4 & shown as 1902 on the timeline.

Royce
 

Yahagi

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Hello
Royce / new2clocks - at the beginning I do not insist on my own, because it is a discussion whose aim is to draw conclusions and establish old facts :) So below with all due respect to your knowledge and experience:

In my opinion, the Paul1975 clock was made around 1911. This is not fully precise dating, but I believe it is close to precision.

I agree with the OLED table. The FM sign may have appeared around 1902. But then he probably appeared and functioned for a while. Available documents indicate that around 1913 the Bergenz plant was transferred to Iselin & Co. If so, we can assume that the Paul1975 clock was made up to this point.


1913post-109112-0-37771500-1570271757.jpg


The history of the Bergenz plant - I believe - is poorly understood. As far as I know - they produced regulators and alarm clocks. I don't say anything about alarm clocks because I don't know the topic. In my archives I have only a dozen or so Mauthe mechanisms that I believe were made in Austria. Unlike Schweninngen - I believe - the numbering was continuous. If this is the case - it gives you an insight into the production volume. Below, the 45932 mechanism I believe was produced before FM.


45_932.jpg

In the archives I have numbers from 60 883 to 95282 with a reference FM number like Paul1975. I have a break between the shown 45923 and 60883 (FM). Perhaps someone has more detailed statistics, that could be helpful

The one we're talking about Paul1975 is 89927.
Based on what I have - I assumed 60,883 is the beginning of FM (1902) and 95,282 is the end of the Bergenz subsidiary and end of production (1913).

60_883.jpg
95_282.jpg


If the conclusion and typing are correct - the Paul1975 movement was created closer to the production shutdown date in Bergenz. Hence, I get +/- 1911.
greetings
 

new2clocks

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Hello
Royce / new2clocks - at the beginning I do not insist on my own, because it is a discussion whose aim is to draw conclusions and establish old facts :) So below with all due respect to your knowledge and experience:

In my opinion, the Paul1975 clock was made around 1911. This is not fully precise dating, but I believe it is close to precision.

I agree with the OLED table. The FM sign may have appeared around 1902. But then he probably appeared and functioned for a while. Available documents indicate that around 1913 the Bergenz plant was transferred to Iselin & Co. If so, we can assume that the Paul1975 clock was made up to this point.


View attachment 662879


The history of the Bergenz plant - I believe - is poorly understood. As far as I know - they produced regulators and alarm clocks. I don't say anything about alarm clocks because I don't know the topic. In my archives I have only a dozen or so Mauthe mechanisms that I believe were made in Austria. Unlike Schweninngen - I believe - the numbering was continuous. If this is the case - it gives you an insight into the production volume. Below, the 45932 mechanism I believe was produced before FM.


View attachment 662880

In the archives I have numbers from 60 883 to 95282 with a reference FM number like Paul1975. I have a break between the shown 45923 and 60883 (FM). Perhaps someone has more detailed statistics, that could be helpful

The one we're talking about Paul1975 is 89927.
Based on what I have - I assumed 60,883 is the beginning of FM (1902) and 95,282 is the end of the Bergenz subsidiary and end of production (1913).

View attachment 662881
View attachment 662882


If the conclusion and typing are correct - the Paul1975 movement was created closer to the production shutdown date in Bergenz. Hence, I get +/- 1911.
greetings
Yahagi,

Very interesting information.

The trademark of the movement with serial number 45932 is attributed to Carl Werner, according to mikrolisk. Werner was known to have used the tradename "Victoria".

Do you agree with the Werner attribution?

Regards.
 
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Paul1975

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Thank al of u for the great explanation and help for establishing an aproxx age n date very grateful as i have no knowledge of this and wanted to get a bit wiser ☺☺☺ thxs again
 

new2clocks

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Hello
Royce / new2clocks - at the beginning I do not insist on my own, because it is a discussion whose aim is to draw conclusions and establish old facts :) So below with all due respect to your knowledge and experience:

In my opinion, the Paul1975 clock was made around 1911. This is not fully precise dating, but I believe it is close to precision.

I agree with the OLED table. The FM sign may have appeared around 1902. But then he probably appeared and functioned for a while. Available documents indicate that around 1913 the Bergenz plant was transferred to Iselin & Co. If so, we can assume that the Paul1975 clock was made up to this point.


View attachment 662879


The history of the Bergenz plant - I believe - is poorly understood. As far as I know - they produced regulators and alarm clocks. I don't say anything about alarm clocks because I don't know the topic. In my archives I have only a dozen or so Mauthe mechanisms that I believe were made in Austria. Unlike Schweninngen - I believe - the numbering was continuous. If this is the case - it gives you an insight into the production volume. Below, the 45932 mechanism I believe was produced before FM.


View attachment 662880

In the archives I have numbers from 60 883 to 95282 with a reference FM number like Paul1975. I have a break between the shown 45923 and 60883 (FM). Perhaps someone has more detailed statistics, that could be helpful

The one we're talking about Paul1975 is 89927.
Based on what I have - I assumed 60,883 is the beginning of FM (1902) and 95,282 is the end of the Bergenz subsidiary and end of production (1913).

View attachment 662881
View attachment 662882


If the conclusion and typing are correct - the Paul1975 movement was created closer to the production shutdown date in Bergenz. Hence, I get +/- 1911.
greetings
Yahagi,

Another question for you.

Do we know if the Bergenz facility was a manufacturing facility or an assembly facility?

It was quite common for German clock makers to open assembly facilities (in France and Austria) in order to avoid high import tariffs. The clock maker would manufacture component parts in Germany for assembly into a movement in France or Austria.

Regards.
 

Yahagi

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Hello
Lots of questions, and I don't think I know all the answers.

At the beginning of:

Is Victoria FM or Carl Werner?
I think Mikrolisk is telling the truth, but only half of it. I believe there were 2 Victories. On the Polish discussion forum there was about it some time ago ... it's not my idea ... others came up with it :)
(As for: Victoria Uhrenfabrik Schlesien Freiburg in Schlesien, - Mikrolisk is wrong.)

One was based on DRP 98543 and this is Carl Werner's Victoria
and the second in the Central Committee of the Monarchy - K.K. Privil 5194. I can't explain why both mechanisms refer to the same name "Victoria" but I think they are 2 different projects. Below photo.

CW - Victoria

1626292166340.png
1626292219784.png
1626292237572.png
1626292389944.png
1626292339453.png
 
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Yahagi

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And here is Victoria, which I consider to be FM. It's a completely different design. It is worth paying attention to the fan, which is the hallmark of FM (S). And the anchor pallets are on the other side of the CW.

1626292567511.jpeg
1626292618210.png
1626292673403.png

In the previous post I consciously showed the 45932 mechanism. It is worth paying attention to a detail. This is still Victoria Privilegium 5194 ... but the font of the number is no longer like in mechanism 23097 ... but it is exactly like the later FM 89927 or the 60 883 and 95 282 I showed.



1626292798298.png

Additionally, these mechanisms (Victoria FM) appeared several times in the photos with Kielman's solution.

1626293173481.png


Was the Bergenz plant a production or assembly plant?

I can't defend it, but I think it's a production one. These mechanisms (Victoria and FM) are unlike anything else. I used to have both of them at my place. This FM - did not impress me ... I did not know the plant in Bergenz and decided that it was FMS from the 1930s. Victoria, on the other hand, had an incomplete gong system under the shield. I couldn't understand how it works. I sold both mechanisms. Only Tatyana drew my attention to them. I think that they were produced in small quantities in Bregenz. But I can't prove it. This is just my belief.

I like the dates OLED gave. 1902 is acceptable to me as the beginning of FM ... although if I had to set mine - I would move it to 1904-5.
And I like the date 1887 as the start of the branch in Bregenz. I believe that FMS made quite a significant acquisition during this period.


He took over a small manufacturer of mechanisms / clocks, which was mentioned on the next thread. For me, it is listed under the abbreviation FWU. I have no idea who it was ... and I have no idea how to find or decode it.

And I think that from that moment on, the FMS (acquisition / merger ... I have no idea what ... from FWU) started producing weighing mechanisms.
Before, he either didn't do them or we don't recognize them. Perhaps it was someone from Bergenz.
 

Yahagi

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Perhaps one more detail.
A colleague from the Polish discussion forum also came here and drew my attention to such a book.

It follows that although the advertisement shown earlier was from 1913, the Mauthe branch in Bregenz ended in 1911. From that moment, until 1928, Iselin & Co.
And if it is so - then the FM mechanism shown at the very beginning should also be set back a year or two, which gives it 1909 or 1910.

Unfortunately, I cannot access this book. If someone had it - the information contained there might be valuable for the knowledge raised in this thread and could be used to clarify the information.

cover.jpg FMS.jpg
 

JTD

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I think the book you are mentioning is:

EDENHOFER, Rene,
Uhrblätter der Wilhelmsburger Steingut-Fabrik von 1900-1955.
Published by the author in 2013. 312 pages.

Edenhofer is an Austrian specialist in earthenware, pottery and porcelain and has published many books on these subjects but this is the only one dealing with clocks. The title is rather misleading, as the book deals with a lot more than just dials.

It is expensive (€69, [$66], plus postage). If I were younger I might have bought it, but I have just too much 'stuff'.

I should love to read it and it is available in libraries in Leipzig, Nürnberg and München, but sadly I cannot find that it is anywhere else (yet).

JTD
 

Yahagi

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That's right, it's his publication.
I only found the headlines as you can see. He probably also writes mainly about ceramic clock faces. But I am intrigued by the date 1888 with Mauthe, as if it were the beginning of some stage. Maybe it's Bregenz ... but maybe something else. And maybe something would be explained ...

Maybe someone from NAWCC has this book and can look there :)
Sample pages from this book:

Bez-nazwy-3.jpg Bez-nazwy-4.jpg
 

Tatyana

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In the previous post I consciously showed the 45932 mechanism. It is worth paying attention to a detail. This is still Victoria Privilegium 5194 ... but the font of the number is no longer like in mechanism 23097 ... but it is exactly like the later FM 89927 or the 60 883 and 95 282 I showed.
The font is very important for identifying movements, I will try to illustrate this based on these movements, but a little later.

I'm sure these movements were made circa 1900.
In two days I will have time to present my observations about the Austrian branch of Mauthe.

Now I want to show a movement with a 1909 renovation record.

79_ХХХ.jpg

BR, Tatyana
 
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Yahagi

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I know that Tatyana has more extensive resources and thanks to that it will be possible to determine something more precisely :)
There is 7900x there?
greetings
 

Tatyana

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I know that Tatyana has more extensive resources and thanks to that it will be possible to determine something more precisely :)
There is 7900x there?
greetings

Yes, 7900Х.

My comments on the Austrian branch:

My database begins with the serial number 10748, movements from this number to 20896 are equipped with such an anchor.

10_748_.jpg 10_748.jpg


Later, a round anchor appears.

22_331 (2) .jpg 22_331___.jpg


The signature Victoria for the first time on 20163, the last movement with Victoria on 53629. Victoria = 1898+ https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/which-victoria-is-this-one.75028/#post-562796


The font of serial numbers is changed from 45932.

45_932.jpg

Signature Eagle + letters FM at 59136.

95_282.jpg

63548 already with the GP signature and the rod gong, i.e. this is already 1899.

63_548_GP_Mauthe.jpg GP_Mauthe_Kienzle.jpg

The biggest movement is 95282.

95_282.jpg

And, there are low serial numbers with the same font 1327, 141X, 1615, 1903.

image3.JPG a31l01-Wanduhr-Regulator-mit-Pendel-_57 (8) .jpg РЕДКИЕ-Antique-Friedrich-Sitto-Wien-Vienna-Wall-Clock-_57.jpg s-l1600 (10) .jpg

Regards
Tatyana
 
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Yahagi

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Very interesting. These mechanisms:
1327, 141X, 1615, 1903 - I see it for the first time.
I don't know about their design. You think they are later than
95282 ??

best regards
 

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