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Fake dials?
- Thread starter Louis Christina
- Start date
As I and others have tried to state with the utmost clarity, originality adds value, if you have a nice example of pocket watch brand X and in most examples of this watch the dials deteriorate badly and it is hard to find one with a good to excellent dial, your watch has a very good to excellent dial. Simply put that adds a heck of a lot of monetary and historic value especially if all the other grades (same) of this watch have non-original (fake) dials. As I stated before I don't plan to be the pocket watch dial police but if the collecting community understands because there are place to look at on the net that show how to spot a non-original (fake) dial then the hobby will start to police itself by knowing and not buying watches that have been altered in a way that decreases its value, that is how they would be policed. It was suggested earlier that how to identify fake dials was easy, common knowledge, in a typical search of the internet this does not appear to be the case, for the average pocket watch collector, not all come to this site, not all are members but if there were to do search via the common search engines and type in fake pocket watch dial or non-original pocket watch dial or whatever politically correct term they used they would find this site. On the area that was started on June 4th there should be an expansion, some is already there, Elgin dials (real dial-fake dial), Hamilton dials (real dial-fake dial), for all brands that apply and the members help fill in the data by supplying examples, if there are any trends, point them out, for double sunk dials look for this, this and this, for metal dials look for this, this and this. Draw collectors to this site, give them good information, let them find out there is a wealth of information here to help them. All good hobbies have data so the collector can use to determine how orginal or non-original his item is. At the moment we are still debaing moot points. Jon at this rate we may get to page 15
Here is a FAKE dial listing, although it may be too sophistcated for Kent.
Otay dials:about 30 years Dr Bundens, one time president of the nawcc, on one of his European trips decided to have a some FAKE Otay Watch Company dials made in Switzerland. The Doc had a horrible, original one with a large chip out of it on one of hs more common grade Otays.
The cost was great (at the time), so the Doc (as we affectionaly called him) decided to have more than one made; he figured he could make back some of his "start up" money by selling the extras to other collectors. One thing he hadn't planned on was that he made more FAKE OTAY dials than there were customers and collectors who needed them due to their scarcity and fact that many Otay dials remain in choice condition.
In the end he sold the remainders for $25. ea AFTER he gave some away to friends as a curiosity!
The dials: not bad except the color of the porcelain, the ink slightly off and ONE DIAL FOOT is slightly off center for its mov't hole allignment requiring a slight bend to fit an Otay movement are incorrect and not a perfect match.
Some non Otay experts have some watches with incorrect dials to this day, and I am certain most are unaware of this fact! The FAKE might look OK, but these are FAKED and have cheated the ignorant buyer. It would be tough and expensive to SWITCH to an original, but then SWITCH FROM WHAT? Rip one off another original watch? (Here COME THE SWITCHING "boys," I can smell them coming.)
So goes the Otay dial story. Have I worried any Otay collectors out there that might have a FAKE?
We had one heck of a lot of fun in those old days!
Otay dials:about 30 years Dr Bundens, one time president of the nawcc, on one of his European trips decided to have a some FAKE Otay Watch Company dials made in Switzerland. The Doc had a horrible, original one with a large chip out of it on one of hs more common grade Otays.
The cost was great (at the time), so the Doc (as we affectionaly called him) decided to have more than one made; he figured he could make back some of his "start up" money by selling the extras to other collectors. One thing he hadn't planned on was that he made more FAKE OTAY dials than there were customers and collectors who needed them due to their scarcity and fact that many Otay dials remain in choice condition.
In the end he sold the remainders for $25. ea AFTER he gave some away to friends as a curiosity!
The dials: not bad except the color of the porcelain, the ink slightly off and ONE DIAL FOOT is slightly off center for its mov't hole allignment requiring a slight bend to fit an Otay movement are incorrect and not a perfect match.
Some non Otay experts have some watches with incorrect dials to this day, and I am certain most are unaware of this fact! The FAKE might look OK, but these are FAKED and have cheated the ignorant buyer. It would be tough and expensive to SWITCH to an original, but then SWITCH FROM WHAT? Rip one off another original watch? (Here COME THE SWITCHING "boys," I can smell them coming.)
So goes the Otay dial story. Have I worried any Otay collectors out there that might have a FAKE?
We had one heck of a lot of fun in those old days!
You know, I've been watching these boards for quite a few years now and I seldom post but I have to say, the clock guys are a lot nicer to each other...
Most of the clock guys I know are OK with refinishing wooden clocks. You can never go back to original from a strip and refinish.....but I would agree that most clock guys are more civil than most watch guys. Watch guys are hot blooded.But, do they switch and fake up clocks as much, OR MORE?
John, I have three clock guys that tell me clocks guys are worse than watch folks; and that there is more clock switching and dial refinishing than one could ever imagine!
After receiving several complaints some posts have been removed.
These posts contained nothing educational nor any relavance to American Pocketwatches (the topic of the forum).
This is a great resource and it works best when focused on horology and not personalities. It also works best remembering people of all ages and sensitivities visiit and enjoy the resource.
Share the knowledge and the enjoyment, the other stuff has no place here.
Thanks
These posts contained nothing educational nor any relavance to American Pocketwatches (the topic of the forum).
This is a great resource and it works best when focused on horology and not personalities. It also works best remembering people of all ages and sensitivities visiit and enjoy the resource.
Share the knowledge and the enjoyment, the other stuff has no place here.
Thanks
I believe it would be wise to begin a list of known FAKE dials. Many FAKE dials have been around for over 30 years. Maybe this list of FAKE dials could be made a sticki.
I do not have any of these/would not own any, but have seen many at shows, in auctions and in private collections.
I'll begin:
16 & 18s Illinois Bunn Special Illinois dials--very poor renditions; one group made in Switzerland on order for Manny Trauring when he was in NYC whih he sold mostly by mail order
18s E Howard (old style)--simply horrible, signatures are totally incorrect and easy to recognize
18s Ferguson dial--seconds at three, incorrect markings
Elgin/Waltham, etc. mostly large size decals created by Roy Ehrhardt; as he stated, "To make ugly watches saleable."
FAKE logos and insignias placed on mostly 12 & 16s metal dials. Also used on porcelain dials which were refired. Cars, trains, motorcycles; Packard, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Pierce Arrow for example were some used. Almost always made for common Elgin & Waltham dials (watches) as these were cheap watches, easy to locate in quantities and repair.
18s Hamilton Ball logos, placed and refired on a small group (12-20) 18s Ball watch dials. These are very dangerous FAKES and have fooled some unsuspecting advanced collectors.
Always use my "STARE AND COMPARE" METHOD, to save you from grief and pocket book drainage!
I believe this is an important topic and list, to aid the newbie and naive collector in todays very treacherous market of FAKERY!
Please add to this list.
1
I do not have any of these/would not own any, but have seen many at shows, in auctions and in private collections.
I'll begin:
16 & 18s Illinois Bunn Special Illinois dials--very poor renditions; one group made in Switzerland on order for Manny Trauring when he was in NYC whih he sold mostly by mail order
18s E Howard (old style)--simply horrible, signatures are totally incorrect and easy to recognize
18s Ferguson dial--seconds at three, incorrect markings
Elgin/Waltham, etc. mostly large size decals created by Roy Ehrhardt; as he stated, "To make ugly watches saleable."
FAKE logos and insignias placed on mostly 12 & 16s metal dials. Also used on porcelain dials which were refired. Cars, trains, motorcycles; Packard, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Pierce Arrow for example were some used. Almost always made for common Elgin & Waltham dials (watches) as these were cheap watches, easy to locate in quantities and repair.
18s Hamilton Ball logos, placed and refired on a small group (12-20) 18s Ball watch dials. These are very dangerous FAKES and have fooled some unsuspecting advanced collectors.
Always use my "STARE AND COMPARE" METHOD, to save you from grief and pocket book drainage!
I believe this is an important topic and list, to aid the newbie and naive collector in todays very treacherous market of FAKERY!
Please add to this list.
1
Jon, there are many members who make a living refinishing clock dials. Clocks are much more a display item than watches, and a badly flaking dial makes for an unattactive display. That clock that was found stored in a barn deserves to be restored to an attractive appearance. If you watch guys and gals don't mind, I would like to copy a few posts in this thread to start a new thread in the clock forum to see how "fake dials" are viewed by clock collectors.John, I have three clock guys that tell me clocks guys are worse than watch folks; and that there is more clock switching and dial refinishing than one could ever imagine!
Have at it Harold - and hopefully Mr. Scottie will chime in on this one and make for some lively conversation!
~Bryan
~Bryan
Hi Harold,
Please be my guest.
I fully understand clock "upgrades" and alterations, as clocks serve more as a utility and the LWs want them pretty to add to their decor.
I know quite a few serious clock collectors and they abhor dial restorations. These folks specialize in older and rarer clocks. Several expert clock folks like Chaney, now of Skinner, and Chris Bailey, the curiator at the Bristol Museum, hate dial alterations and clock switching! They will not own or have any part of it!
I am being honest here and am reporting what they tell me, as I am not a clock man (but I do have a few--family items. Mom & Pop would come back and shoot me if I refinished a family GF 18th century brass dial or an Elliott!).
What type of clocks do your friends on the CLOCK MB switch and fake?
Jon
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Jon, it depends on the degree of degridation of the dial. If it is losing all of it's identifying characteristics (signature, numbers) I feel it is better to restore than to end up with a blank piece of metal. Many old tall clock dials are becoming almost one of a kind rare. Many of those involved in dial restoration are truely talented individuals.
Understood. Clocks dials are more subject to wear and use!
Yes, and don't forget to include glass experts.
Rather than SWITCH tablets, I have seen some incredible repairs of the glass!
One issue with GF clocks is that many have been sold through decorators to businesses as an office expense; thus, the OVER use, moving mishaps and inflated prices of same.
Yes, and don't forget to include glass experts.
Rather than SWITCH tablets, I have seen some incredible repairs of the glass!
One issue with GF clocks is that many have been sold through decorators to businesses as an office expense; thus, the OVER use, moving mishaps and inflated prices of same.
It seems the last place to look for examples of fake dials is this thread. I'll try to change that.
Below are a pair of 16s dials that came with a lot of parts and tools I bought over the weekend. They appear to be porcelain on metal but are odd. They have no brand name nor do they have feet. You'd have to glue them to the movements. What are they? How would you use them?
Cheers,
Stan
Below are a pair of 16s dials that came with a lot of parts and tools I bought over the weekend. They appear to be porcelain on metal but are odd. They have no brand name nor do they have feet. You'd have to glue them to the movements. What are they? How would you use them?
Cheers,
Stan
Attachments
Hi,
Not having thm in hand thy could be:
1. unfinished
2. error dials
3. dials that require a" rack" as in English watches to be attached to the dial, the to the movement
4. dials that require a ring for snap on
WITHOUT having them in hand, I'd guess #3.
In any event these appear NOT to be American and should be placed in the foreign topic.
Not having thm in hand thy could be:
1. unfinished
2. error dials
3. dials that require a" rack" as in English watches to be attached to the dial, the to the movement
4. dials that require a ring for snap on
WITHOUT having them in hand, I'd guess #3.
In any event these appear NOT to be American and should be placed in the foreign topic.
There ya go. That just shows that we need more fake dials displayed here to help me out.
Thanks, Jon.
Cheers,
Stan
Thanks, Jon.
Cheers,
Stan
I want to help you Stan.
Here's a little beauty. It's an 18s Waltham. You can see the silk screen dots without a loupe. What looks like a crease in the sticker at the seconds bit, is the lighting. The dial is mint, and the glue holding the decal on, is still holding.
Please don't write me asking if it's for sale. It is not. I wouldn't sell it to anyone.
Here's a little beauty. It's an 18s Waltham. You can see the silk screen dots without a loupe. What looks like a crease in the sticker at the seconds bit, is the lighting. The dial is mint, and the glue holding the decal on, is still holding.
Please don't write me asking if it's for sale. It is not. I wouldn't sell it to anyone.
Attachments
Brian, a real beauty & a fine acquisition--worthy of the finest of collections.
One of Roy's very best!
One of Roy's very best!
Jon,
Thank you very much. I knew you would like it. It is so worthy of my collection, I keep it separate from the others. I'll post another little beauty tomorrow. Scanning too many of these at once, is hard on the eyes.
I almost forgot. The reason I showed the back of the dial is, I didn't want anyone writing asking if it said O'Hara on the back.
Thank you very much. I knew you would like it.
It is so worthy of my collection, I keep it separate from the others. I'll post another little beauty tomorrow. Scanning too many of these at once, is hard on the eyes.I almost forgot. The reason I showed the back of the dial is, I didn't want anyone writing asking if it said O'Hara on the back.
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I am pleased to see the back because I thought, maybe, possibly, hopefully it might have been a MOORHOUSE! 
OK. I will commit heresy. Of course, I prefer an unrefinished dial that is is in good condition, but I prefer a correctly refinished dial to a damaged metal dial. For example, this Bok-cased Hamilton 400 came with an aged dial with a dent in it. The refinished dial looks much better, if only to me.
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Jon,
If you liked the last dial I showed, you're really going to love this one. It's one of my favorites. This one is an 18s American Waltham Watch, 18s, Card Dial. What makes this so confusing, is it's signed Laredo over the seconds bit. If anyone knows what that means, it's ok, you don't need to write. Anyway, I think this dial will fit most 18s Waltham's, as it doesn't have any dial feet. It comes with dial dots. (see picture) Maybe it's a Moorehouse, I don't know. 
It is in mint condition. I know a lot of people would like this dial, but I wouldn't sell it to anyone, at almost any price. It's a keeper I tell you.
If you liked the last dial I showed, you're really going to love this one.
It's one of my favorites. This one is an 18s American Waltham Watch, 18s, Card Dial. What makes this so confusing, is it's signed Laredo over the seconds bit. If anyone knows what that means, it's ok, you don't need to write. Anyway, I think this dial will fit most 18s Waltham's, as it doesn't have any dial feet. It comes with dial dots. (see picture) Maybe it's a Moorehouse, I don't know. It is in mint condition. I know a lot of people would like this dial, but I wouldn't sell it to anyone, at almost any price. It's a keeper I tell you.Attachments
Fake dials--Brian, you are spoiling us!
certainly unique and should grace singer's Wiki
Don't you have more of these "gems?"
certainly unique and should grace singer's Wiki
Don't you have more of these "gems?"
I found another one.
This is an 18s Waltham, signed A.W.Co. Waltham. I showed this to Joe Conroy, years ago. He looked at it with his loupe and said, "it's a fake, but a good one" He then asked me if I wanted to sell it. I figured if he wanted it, it was either a good one, or he wanted to crush it, so it would be no more.
Hey, I just figured, I have a collection, of these great dials.
This is an 18s Waltham, signed A.W.Co. Waltham. I showed this to Joe Conroy, years ago. He looked at it with his loupe and said, "it's a fake, but a good one" He then asked me if I wanted to sell it. I figured if he wanted it, it was either a good one, or he wanted to crush it, so it would be no more.
Hey, I just figured, I have a collection, of these great dials.
Attachments
Knowing jumpimg Joe........he wanted it to sell and make a buck!
PS Boy, that one is dark--the dark side of dial collecting.
The "6" which isn't there!!!!!!!!!
Actually, Jumping Joe is starting a comeback--he is on his ninth life. He has been seen in NH sniffing around a few auctions.
Actually, Jumping Joe is starting a comeback--he is on his ninth life. He has been seen in NH sniffing around a few auctions.
Does this make it RARE?PS Boy, that one is dark--the dark side of dial collecting.
Bryan Eyring,
Aspiring RARE Dial Collector
I am both EXCITED and EAGER to become well LEARNED in these RARE items.
Thank you Jon and Brian for bequething your knowledge of these RARE dials upon me.
Most Respectfully,
Bryan
Thank you Jon and Brian for bequething your knowledge of these RARE dials upon me.
Most Respectfully,
Bryan
Ok, enough, turn these wonderful items over to the wonderful world of WIKI (WWW)!
Well now. This rather lively thread seems like a good place to show off 2 recent additions to the collection.
We have -
A watch that is trying its hardest to look like a Waltham pocket watch with single-sunk Montgomery dial, and
(from the same seller, IIRC) A watch with Ferguson-style dial, old-fashioned hour & minute hands, and (for that really authentic touch) a seconds hand that judders along in what might be 0.2 second increments.
I shall be keeping an eye out to see whether a similar "boxcar" or "Erhardt" offering becomes available.
We have -
A watch that is trying its hardest to look like a Waltham pocket watch with single-sunk Montgomery dial, and
(from the same seller, IIRC) A watch with Ferguson-style dial, old-fashioned hour & minute hands, and (for that really authentic touch) a seconds hand that judders along in what might be 0.2 second increments.
I shall be keeping an eye out to see whether a similar "boxcar" or "Erhardt" offering becomes available.
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