FABULOUS FACEBOOK FIND

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by Paul Finley, Jan 1, 2020.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Paul Finley

    Paul Finley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 16, 2010
    16
    7
    3
    I found this clock on Facebook 'marketplace' today, and can't seem to find much info on it. The clock is missing it's weight and weight shield. The case measures 34 inches and the dial 12. I think this may be an American 'tavern', but not sure. Any info would be appreciated. Paul

    5C3AEB06-2DA5-48D7-9A45-8FEA0D5C25AF.jpeg B70583E3-AFA0-4774-B7DA-8413BA6D3530.jpeg 4668900C-1740-4636-B249-1DF616CF2ECD.jpeg 33302975-1A88-4475-B018-D0ACFC7609A5.jpeg 80A730CB-8C81-4796-9AD0-4DAF36378B30.jpeg DA736AEA-2E32-430F-AEDA-2F967129C726.jpeg 9FF49EE0-E0DF-4075-A60D-168FE14EBF8A.jpeg D5F0B2E7-D022-4C37-B89C-1F3A5E2C72CB.jpeg 35A4B271-55FD-4D5E-999D-7B41686DF732.jpeg
     
  2. Raymond Rice

    Raymond Rice Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 14, 2011
    284
    26
    28
    Retired IBM manager, retired politician, now just
    NYS
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Great looking clock! I'm sure someone will be along shortly who can tell you exactly what you have acquired.
    Ray Rice
     
  3. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    6,553
    737
    113
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    guess i can't really complain given my success on craigslist... but, dangit... i never see anything like that on Facebook... well done! :cool:
     
    S_Owsley likes this.
  4. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,662
    208
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #4 Chris Radano, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    I used to see clocks like this for sale at auctions in the North East fairly regularly, but have not seen any for a few years. So apparently they are not common, and the majority of these appear to have found homes. Yes, people will call them "tavern clocks". I would think this type of timepiece was probably used in some kind of public or business capacity. And with all the securing holes in the back board, it was a fairly well used timepiece. What's most interesting to me, is it's a clear transition from banjo clocks, to the later wall weight regulators we know, such as the ST #2, #1 and #1 Extras, S.B. Terry, the larger CT clock factories, etc. Although there is overlap where banjo clocks by E. Howard and the like were made later into the 19th c. But the innards of your clock clearly resemble a banjo clock. For dating you're probably around 1850. The maker I don't know, if someone said S.B. Terry, I wouldn't disagree, although S.B. Terry's movements were more individualistic. I'm sure there were other, similar clocks by a variety of makers from the same time period.
     
  5. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
    4,675
    121
    63
    Devon
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you wanted to compare this to an English clock then it would be to a Norwich clock not a tavern clock but it looks just like a banjo movement.
     
  6. Paul Finley

    Paul Finley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 16, 2010
    16
    7
    3
    Thanks for all the useful information. Paul
     
  7. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,077
    834
    113
    Country Flag:
    Interesting clock.

    Reminiscent of wall clocks (well, timepieces; they usually don't strike) made by Aaron Willard, Stowell and Dunning. They are often referred to as "tavern clocks".

    See this link to the Delaney web site for a SOLD clock. It is most informative:

    Abel Stowell of Charlestown, Massachusetts. Wall clock. Tavern clock. @ Delaney Antique Clocks

    Also see this other SOLD example:

    Willard School Weight Driven Mahogany Dish Dial Tavern Clock Boston C. 1830

    Here's a link to a SOLD Simon Willard that is time and strike:

    Simon Willard Mahogany Tavern Clock | Sale Number 3147M, Lot Number 190 | Skinner Auctioneers

    S.B. Terry also made wall clocks of similar form but very different movements. See this for a SOLD example:

    https://adamsbrown.com/wordpress1/antique-clocks-for-sale/wall-clocks-weight-driven-regulators/silas-b-terry-c-1830-weight-driven-regulator-tavern-clock-choice-mahogany-case

    Some of the later versions had metal dials and doors with reverse painted tablets. The movements were different than in his earlier versions.

    The movement in yours appears to be a T-bridge banjo movement that mounted to the back board of its original case with through bolts.

    Please take a good look at the cases and dials of the clocks I have linked to.

    To me the dial, bezel (they both look like they came off of a school house clock) and case are wrong. It looks to me like something put together possibly using some older parts/wood and an old movement.

    But these clocks are not my forte. Hopefully those with more knowledge in this area will comment.

    RM
     
  8. Paul Finley

    Paul Finley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 16, 2010
    16
    7
    3
    RM Thanks for the 'online' information. I see what you are saying about the movement, dial and bezel, but everything seems to line up perfectly. The dial seems original to the bezel, looking at the screw holes. The dial winding hole lines up with the movement etc. Anyway, it's going to be a fun project with little invested.
     
  9. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,662
    208
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #9 Chris Radano, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    The reasons for my date were based on the dial, and hands. After my previous post it did occur to me the dial could have been replaced, possibly NOS. The hands to me are 1850. But the movement does look older than the rest of the clock. However, the case shows signs of use over time. The inside of the pendulum door appears to have been chiseled later. So I would say what stands out to me the most, as far as possibly being later, is the dial (2 piece and large numerals, dating to at least late 19th c.). It's an interesting clock, and thanks for posting it here. It could have been made locally in it's location of service by a local craftsman.
     
  10. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,077
    834
    113
    Country Flag:
    Yes. Should be a fun project with little risk of doing any real harm.

    A preamble.

    My comments are based upon what I would consider fair pix and obviously not a direct examination so anything I say should be taken with caution. Plus, I feel that I am not anywhere close to an authority about these clocks.

    I post my views here with the full expectation that I will learn something through any potential discussion and debate stimulated by them, which I fully welcome.

    Finally, I'm not trying to be mean. I am involved in discussions like this all the time about furniture, folk art, paintings, and so on. I sometimes face stiff questioning from potential buyers about an object (anticipating that, I do my homework and boy oh boy, have I been wrong) as well directing it to potential sellers. I also discuss things with others at auctions, shows, etc. So this type of questioning/discussion is something I consider, well routine and often valuable.

    Could be a "country" version I guess.

    However, simple and country don't = crude.

    Also, look at the wonderful cases of the other example re: choice of veneers, construction, etc.

    I've kind of pored over the pix. I really think that it's old parts/wood put together. For example, the door is specifically mentioned. Yes, sometimes that chiseling happened later. But I think it's possibly a door or part of one from another piece of furniture, e.g., from the upper section of a secretary with that brass lined escutcheon. The way the hinges are placed is atypical, too.

    I see wire nails. The way the bottom is attached with screws isn't correct. Yes, it might represent a bad repair/replacement after the weight crashed through it.

    The interior color is so uniform as if it was "aged" with stain.

    All of those holes in the back board. Yes, a few to secure to the wall. However, it looks like it was shot with a tommy gun. Same true of the rails. To me, too many extraneous holes => prior use. Backboard has surprisingly little wear from 1 3/4 century of a weight going up and down.

    The T-bridge movement has holes to bolt through the plates. Now unused with those rusty turnbuckles. Could be okay, but...

    I could keep nit picking.

    The clock may be 100% correct. But for me, just too many red flags.

    Still, has potential and once up and running, will be a fun piece. Not every clock has to be something so pure that Israel Sack and Brooks Palmer are going to come back from the dead to own it.

    Enjoy and learn.

    RM
     
  11. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,823
    565
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #11 Jim DuBois, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    The movement in your clock is a "Tee bridge" movement almost always originally found in the so-called banjo case. They originally mounted in their cases via two diagonal bolts, your movement has those holes but it does not appears as if it ever mounted in that fashion in this case. The movement dates to about 1805-1815. I agree the hands date more 1850 ish. The case? Hard to tell when it was made, the originally carved recess in the back of the door is ever so nicely done. The more recent carving on the center section suggests a clearance problem that also suggests the movement may have been a more recent "rehoming" of the movement to the case. As in they didn't start life together. The dial itself is pretty clearly more recent, both in style and condition. The base of the case seems to be retained with 4 screws. That would be a most uncommon method of attachment if original to its construction. The case has a nice but somewhat questionable patina. It might have been made for the movement back when and the more recent door carved recess might have been necessary due to wood shrinkage over time (and central heat?) But I think it a more recent effort. I find the dial "off-putting" but like the clock overall. I think it is interesting and certainly worth a bit of further investigation.

    Hmm, I see RM has done a similar posting while I am typing this, so I yield the discussion to his work. And for the record, both Palmer and Sacks were hitting at a lot less than 1.000. But, we understand the point.
     
  12. Paul Finley

    Paul Finley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 16, 2010
    16
    7
    3
    Thanks for all the observations, you have made some very interesting points. Like I said, I have very little invested, so any negative comments are welcome.
     
  13. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
    2,823
    565
    113
    Male
    Magnolia, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Not really intending my comments to be taken as negative. My usual intent is to add content/information to a thread, as are the comments by others. Sometimes that information may be positive but often is not. In this case, the dial is most likely post-1900, the movement is quite early 1800's, the hands circa 1850. The period of the case remains a question mark. It has age, how much of the finish/patina/surfaces are natural remains a question. The brass screws retaining a later version of lock suggest a later constriction as do wire nails seen in the case. The screws holding the bottom of the case should be checked. If they are sharp-pointed and well finished that is a clue to a later construction or later repair. If they are blunt-tipped and more roughly made it suggests earlier construction. And yes, screws can be changed out. The plethora of holes in the case parts generates more questions than answers. If the clock were mine I would locate a more correct dial, install a proper weight shield, makeup or locate a good weight, and enjoy the timepiece.

    08_07screws.jpg
     
    S_Owsley and Jmeechie like this.
  14. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,662
    208
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have a few clocks that I have more questions than answers. Here is one that comes to mind:

    Unusual, eclectic, good quality, small size "drop dial"

    Now I have no idea what's going on with that clock. But it's not bad at all.

    Or, this:

    Vienna Regulator, unusual case...or, "fun with nails".

    But I think the case on that one dates to around 1910.

    This clock may be an older replica. It may have been put together about 100 or so years ago. No one doubts the authenticity of the movement. If it's a replica, I think it's pretty good. And the screws at the base? How about the problem of the weight falling through the bottom? Although I do think the case was made that way.
     
  15. Paul Finley

    Paul Finley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 16, 2010
    16
    7
    3
    Thanks for all the input. I've decided to nickname my clock 'Frank'. I added more pics.

    D8436B82-1F8E-4A08-8293-0E3FD01C220F.jpeg 1FEDD24A-CC6F-49C8-A536-15B2D2646C51.jpeg FCC79372-BF75-44BA-81BE-B832A0172257.jpeg C6F2A102-BACA-44BE-AE49-1721635FD63F.jpeg 6B2521C9-C860-4030-8454-B2E0D98FD7CB.jpeg
     
  16. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,662
    208
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I wonder if the case maker used screws on the bottom, to anticipate an easy repair in the event the weight fell through the bottom. Just a thought!
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,077
    834
    113
    Country Flag:
    Nyet.

    RM
     
  18. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,077
    834
    113
    Country Flag:
    Old Rivers likes this.
  19. PatH

    PatH Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Dec 5, 2014
    1,653
    1,131
    113
    Female
    Texas
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ah...if only such features were included, much time and elbow grease would be saved. :)
     
  20. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,662
    208
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    "Easy change out" bottom replacement.
     
  21. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,732
    193
    63
    Male
    Underwater Robotics Expert
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    May I ask, what is a weight shield? I'm having trouble picturing one or where it might go.

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  22. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    5,077
    834
    113
    Country Flag:
    I think he meant the weight board or baffle. Found in a # of different types of weight driven wall clocks including banjos, regulators. May be wood or tin. The weight falls behind it, the pendulum swings in front. May also have a pendulum tie down. Sometimes was a surface to which a label might be applied.

    Some quick examples:
    baffle.PNG baffle 1.jpg baffle 2.jpg

    RM
     
    gleber likes this.
  23. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,732
    193
    63
    Male
    Underwater Robotics Expert
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Okay, so that was my best guess, but I'm grateful for the confirmation. Thanks RM.

    Tom
     
  24. Jmeechie

    Jmeechie Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2010
    196
    17
    18
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi,
    I’ve been enjoying this post and just want to throw in my 2 cents worth! Whom ever made the case certainly had some clock/case knowledge as they installed a channel for the weight to travel down the back. A person off the street would have probably omitted this! I can’t really tell but I don’t see any appreciable weight wear to the backboard? It definitely had a shield between the weight and pendulum as evidenced by the numerous screw holes! It’s certainly old as all those mounting hole in the backboard certainly speak to a lath & plaster wall and looking for a firm hold!
    What we sometimes forget, overlook is clocks were a utilitarian device, and not a collectible treasure 75+ years ago and people would sit at the dining room table fiddling with the clock when it quit trying to claim victory repairing the clock! When I was a bairn my uncle, to keep me occupied on visits would go in the closet and pull out a disassembled clock placing it in front of me saying “it’s yours if you can put together!” Well challenge accepted and I did figure the trains out and still have those clocks and they run! Of course they didn’t back then as they were filthy and needed som bushing work! P.S. that’s how I got into clocks and repairing/restoring them!
    Any ways, yes, the dials wrong (original was probably painted and flaked or was cleaned with thinner years ago), the movement was possibly repositioned due to the replacement dial, the weight may have took out the base and someone fashioned a replacement using newer attachment methods!
    Regardless, it’s a great cloaking clock, probably built by lesser know/local clock person and has lived a colorful life and is now in caring hands waiting to get back to work! Enjoy the restoration/history and pulling together all the correct/missing bits!
    Cheers,
    James
     
    S_Owsley likes this.
  25. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
    4,675
    121
    63
    Devon
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    When I was growing I didn't come across anyone who knew anything about clocks alive or dead and I don't suppose it is much different now, for example just ask anyone how their smartphone works and the point is why should they. The idea people just buy stuff for purely utilitarian reasons sounds off to me otherwise why for example all those Jimmy Choo shoes and for those interested and with sufficient money the same is true of the most prestigious clocks. I know if I won the lottery I'd, amongst other things, go clock shopping but the ones I've got are safe.
     
  26. Jmeechie

    Jmeechie Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 8, 2010
    196
    17
    18
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I’m not trying to start anything, my point is, the average person on the street looks at a clock or watch as means of telling time foremost and as a fashion statement secondly. People of status considered both these factors foremost as the tall clock was present in the entry hall as a symbol of status the same as a pocket timepiece. Have you ever wondered why some tall clocks have locks and some don’t? To prevent the help from advancing the time to get off early/mucking with the time! Yet non staffed houses didn’t need this option!
    I’ll presume you’ve saved every tv, toy, toaster, etc you’ve ever owned! Timex & Dollar watches were produced on the principal of cheap and disposable, yet there’s collectors now a days.
    My point is, we as collectors loose sight of the tons of clock that ended up in the tip when it quit telling time and a replacement was acquired. We find it sacrilege when we find a clock in a damp musty basement or hobbled together, they didn’t revere in the fascination of the timepiece as we, the collector do!
    Cheers
     
  27. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
    4,675
    121
    63
    Devon
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hmm, I've no interest in what your point is.
     

Share This Page