F. C. Andrews Column Clock

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by sylvester12, Dec 24, 2018.

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  1. sylvester12

    sylvester12 Registered User

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    I agreed to purchase this clock last night I haven't picked it up yet. F. C. Andrews Column Mantle clock. I will post better pictures when I get the clock. It's an 8 day Lyre movement made by J.C. Brown according to another thread I have read. Dates to around 1850. Looks like it needs a bit of TLC pictures can be deceiving. Tablet looks original I don't know whats in the bottom door. Any input would be appreciated.


    $_59ac.jpg $_59av.jpg $_59am.jpg $_59.jpg
     
  2. sylvester12

    sylvester12 Registered User

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    This is the only other example I could find but it has the same panel in bottom door.

    15059306_1_l.jpg
     
  3. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Nice clock.

    I really like the tablet. Wonderful! Fenn? FC Andrews is listed as a customer of Fenn. NYC was another source of stenciled tablets, too.

    The lower panel is absolutely correct.

    The movement is an 8 day weight driven J.C. Brown product as you say.

    For another FC Andrews example, see this thread:

    Need advice on restoring finish

    Scroll to posting # 30.

    JD posted some pix of your clock's cousin by the same maker.

    On the same thread, scroll down posting's # 9 and 12 for basically the same bearing the label of the NYC assembler L.S. Hotchkiss & Co. Here's a teaser pic:

    img_5470-jpg.jpg

    In fact, I associate this type of case with the NYC assemblers. No doubt bartering went on so some of these cases wind up with Bristol, CT or other labels. See below for a bit more about this.

    My clock has the same wonderful JCB movement, also unsigned.

    In my experience, these cases were grained and veneered (mine has gotten rather dark; no, no refinishing here). As discussed on other threads, the NYC assemblers often used a combination of these, sometimes enhancing the rather plain veneer used with the addition of graining! As with many of these, the striptease may have occurred on yours.

    Please, use the wooden dial as is even if rough. Lose the awful paper overpaste!

    Here's something in the Bulletin about LF Andrews:

    http://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/1980/articles/1984/231/231_463.pdf

    It states "L. & F. Andrews produced clock parts, frequently trading parts for completed movements, and then marketing clocks, both wood and brass movement, under their own label." Bet they got the case from a NYC assembler?

    By the way, you're a NAWCC member. You also have access to the Bulletin. It's the best benefit of membership. Take advantage of it.

    Nice choice.

    RM
     
  4. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    F(ranklin) C. Andrews also partnered with Theodore Terry to form Terry and Andrews (1842/3-50). This firm was persuaded by Industrialist Anson Phelps to relocate from Bristol to Ansonia in 1850, and the firm eventually became the first Ansonia Clock Co. (1850-54). We find many of the first Ansonia Clock Co. clocks with Terry and Andrews movements.

    Per Spittlers and Bailey, an F.C. Andrews, Bristol, OG exists with a Fenn tablet and a 30-hour Chauncey Jerome movement, stamped Chauncey Jerome, New Haven, Conn. S&B say the OG is probably dated 1845-47.
     
  5. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks!

    Nice tie-in.

    RM
     
  6. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Thank you in turn. That’s the short version. Somewhat more on the Terry & Andrews- Ansonia connection in Chris Bailey’s intro to Tran’s Ansonia book. Andrews had a hand in several horological pots and is perhaps a bit under appreciated.
     
  7. sylvester12

    sylvester12 Registered User

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    Everyone's input is greatly appreciated but the seller renagged on me and won't sell the clock now. I would have liked to have it in my collection but on to the next one. Who knows why the sudden change maybe he thought he wasn't getting enough money.
     
  8. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    If anyone is interested in these, I have several examples of them from various makers, which include:
    - M W Platt
    - Sperry & Shaw (many by them)
    - F C Andrews (and F Andrews)
    - Chauncey Jerome
    - William S Sperry
    - Barton Brothers
    - S W Shaw
    - Seth Thomas
    - William S Johnson

    These were produced in 8 day versions with either Lyre, Acorn, or Manross type (fancy plate) movements, or plain Forestville or Jerome 8 day movements. 30 hour versions were also made in the same case style, but the columns were cut with the extra flat portions at the top and bottom removed. These have various movements as well, being either plain ogee type movements, or fancy plate 30 hour versions of the 8 day models (like the cut-down Manross fancy plate movement). 3-train examples also exist. Most bottom panels tend to be GRAIN PAINTED (as well as the columns) which is why they often look like a pale non-matching wood when cases have been refinished. Several cases (like my example) had very dark (near black) rosewood graining.

    Mine is a Sperry and Shaw, and you can see a video of it here:
     
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  9. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Really nice example!

    RM
     
  10. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Sooth, I notice in your video the rails in your Sperry and Shaw were also cut to accept a seat board and 30 hr movement, as well as your entirely proper 8 day movement. I have seen this a couple of times in some of these other so called NYC clock makers. It looks like they were ready for multiple movements but the 30 hr vs 8 day is interesting to say the very least. And as you suggest they used a wide range of movements in their clocks.

    Here are several different movements, there are several others also, but these are what I have at the moment, found in the various Sperry and Sperry and Shaw clocks. The glass is a bit unusual, this one was restored by Lee Davis but only in spots, great touch up work. The apparently curly oak decorations on the bottom of the case under the columns is also something I have not seen on these previously. I thought it was curly maple at first but the pores of the wood suggest it is not.

    You will notice the 2nd photo also has both the 30 hr and the 8 day slots in the rails to cover both movement options.

    As can be seen this clock also has the blind panel in the base but it has either suffered sun damage or it has been half stripped (right hand half) I thought this one to be of interest given its rosewood (painted) columns and the claim on the label.

    20181227_102845 (Large).jpg 20181227_102533 (Large).jpg 20181227_102500 (Large).jpg 20181227_102434 (Large).jpg 20181227_103030 (Large).jpg 20181227_102908 (Large).jpg 20181227_103124 (Large).jpg 20181227_102840 (Large).jpg
     
  11. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Thanks RM. I do really love this particular clock. The finish is very dark, but it's the original, and it's in good shape overall. It's too dark to tell in the video, but the columns are likely pine or poplar, and they are grain-painted to resemble rosewood. The claim on Jim's label is quite interesting. The construction on this clock (and others I've seen) is unusual. Parts are veneered; like the SIDES, the lower frame, the door, and the mouldings/centre bar, while other areas are grain painted (the columns and the centre bottom panel). I don't understand why they would veneer the sides (which are very large areas that are often not visible) but NOT veneer the bottom panel.

    From other examples I've seen in the Shaw NY clocks, they often REALLY cheaped out on the cases. One example of this is a NY 4 column clock with flat stock on the top and bottom (rather than the usual ogee curved moulding). They also tended to use freehand tablets after litho ones became more popular (with the hand painted tablets likely being cheaper?) and they tend to have used whatever surplus or discounted movements they could get their hands on, which is why so many of their clocks have "mix and match" parts, which include movements, hands, gong bases, weights, and bobs. Even their labels didn't stay consistent. They moved addresses often and had at least a half dozen different labels.

    Jim's clock is especially odd, having oak veneer, since it's not a two-tone case. Did they just have scraps lying around, and they put a dark red finish over it? It wouldn't seem that unlikely. When you're using a dark red finish, you can pretty much "get away with anything" as most of the grain and colour in the wood will be camouflaged.

    I've also noticed that the crowns on these clocks varied. The one on mine is pretty squat, while on Jim's, it appears to be almost a half inch taller, which gives nicer proportions. Some have just the angular piece without the thin flat stock above it.

    Here are a few examples. There are two NY 4 column clocks with flat stock (cheap construction), and the image with the two NY 4 column clocks together shows a grain-painted Sperry (with ogee mouldings) vs a Terry & Andrews in real rosewood veneer. Note that the first column clock, with the sailboat glass, appears to have been stripped, and the pine is now visible (grain painting is all gone). The other image shows one of the less common 30hr versions of the column clocks discussed in this thread.

    Cheap NY 4 Column Sperry (all flat stock) 01.jpg William Sperry - Chauncey Jerome NY 4 Col Shelf Clock 01.JPG Sperry & Shaw 10 Courtlandt St - Townsend 23 John St NY (Terry & Andrews Movnt) 01.JPG Sperry & Shaw 01.jpg
     
  12. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    The second clock shown (the NY 4 column in a dark finish) has the same sort of really dark rosewood finish as my clock.
     
  13. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Yes, I agree.

    Furthermore, you are actually making some of the very same points I have tried to make on other threads.

    The clock I posted above like yours is likely grained but has turned very dark almost black. Veneer is also used. My dial is similar to the one on yours but the chapter ring on mine is gold leafed. Note the hands.

    The various treatments applied to the surface of these clocks and the 4 columns were intended to give an overall uniform appearance and to conceal that various types of wood were used. RE: refinishing. True of these clocks and of the 4 columns is that the finishes applied seem to turn really dark (low quality varnish or shellac?) so there is this incredible rush to strip them. Most ill advised. There was a thread about this on the MB.

    I've previously posted this clock also to make some of the same points you do:

    bradshaw 1.JPG bradshaw 2.JPG

    This a 30 hour brass works weight driven 4 column by William Bradshaw of 76 Pearl Street in NYC.

    Note the use of a free hand glass (a very good one if I dare say) and graining but not just on a "base" wood, but used on parts that are veneered! I believe meant to enhance a rather plain veneer. Jerome did that, too.

    These guys were in the business of making things like moldings, frames, mirrors, etc. It was a short step to make clocks cases. I do believe that they used the techniques and materials at hand.

    All in all, these clocks may have been "cheap", but still well done and most pleasing, IMCO. Reliable, too. Here they are ticking away > 100 years later with relatively easy to fix mass produced movements.

    Finally, we mustn't forget that because these guys found ways of providing an appealing product at a relatively reasonable price, they made clocks accessible as never before. How democratic?

    RM
     
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  14. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Yes, don't get me wrong. I don't dislike these "cheaply made" clocks. It's quite fascinating to see the extra effort put into them just to save pennies. I would think that it was quite a bit more labour to hand-grain the wooden pieces, since this would need to be done before assembly. But how much more expensive was the rosewood veneer? It's still considered an exotic wood today.

    It's hard to say if the varnish or finish has just darkened, or if it was simply meant to be very dark. Black and near-black ebony style clocks have always been rather high fashion, as were black marble clocks. The bonus of making them this dark is that it makes it harder to tell that it's not actually an expensive wood.

    I do also prefer the freehand tablets, but it seems that by the time these were being made (these clocks), they were starting to become outdated. For example, that boat tablet is absolutely superb!
     
  15. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    While I like the boat glass, I would label it as a probable replacement or non-period glass. Closer inspection might help but if it walks like a duck and it quacks.....but, never say never and never say always....just very highly unusual in style and execution for a modestly priced clock originally, and a clock that has already been abused in other ways also (skinned case, original paint all gone). Danger Will Robinson!
     
  16. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Jim, you're correct. I had another look (other images of the clock) and it's too immaculate, and the back is too clean, so likely a Moberg or similar replacement.
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Again, I would rethink some of that.

    Graining was probably the less expensive and more available option.

    Graining was used extensively in the 19th century on case pieces, chairs, frames, moldings, and so on. In both the "big city" and especially in the "country" (i.e., furniture made in rural settings or smaller furniture making centers). In both places, especially for the NYC clock assemblers who were already making all of the aforementioned products in addition to clock cases, the skill set was available as were the materials making them a logical option and more controllable than dealing with importers, middle men etc. It provided a range of options, too. Could look like any number of woods: e.g., rose wood, mahogany, for those that wanted the exotic tropical woods and more convenient than having them imported and then stored, etc. Could look like a better domestic wood, like tiger or birds eye maple. Or, could be just "fancy" and colorful:

    884da1daa5cccd26b69be828cc430d98--country-furniture-primitive-furniture.jpg

    For more like this, including clocks, see my favorite reference book, Priddy's "American Fancy".

    And remember, in them days, labor was cheap!

    I would suggest the same about the hand done tablets. Remember, these guys were making mirrors, many of which had reverse painted tablets. The materials and workers were on hand. I speculate (without proof, as is the instance with most of my pontifications) that it may have been less expensive or at least easier to use them, for a while. Furthermore, those producing the hand made ones might have had to lower their prices to remain competitive and to hang on to business. I also speculate that one of the things that really drove them and someone like Fenn out of the business was the industrialization of clock production. Clocks were now being produced in great numbers by larger and fewer companies in large factories where all aspects of production were brought under one roof to produce the volume and variety that they offered. Improvements in transportation made shipping all over the country feasible and cost effective.

    RM
     
  18. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    The costs of tablets and or mirrors in clocks of this general period is a bit confused. We know more about the costs of earlier work than that of Fenn's period, from the information we have from Jerome(s), Ives, and Hodges. In about 1830 mirror tablets were reported to be costing $.50 as listed in Hodges writings. Painted tablets were reported at $.12 1/2 each or $.15 for those with gold edges. By 1840-1842 mirrored glasses were listed for $.18. Jerome(s) were by then selling their whole 1839 patent clocks with painted tablets for under $2.00 and doing so, by their words, "at a profit." So, we could assume painted tablets were pretty cheap, most likely well under the cost of a mirrored tablet. Fenn products were just begining to come to the market and even with their better than others style and execution they must have been cost competitive.
     
  19. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    I just picked up the same case with this movement (unsigned) labeled L.S. Hotchkiss, New York. Is this the same Hotchkiss as in Hotchkiss and Benedict, Auburn New York?
     
  20. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    The Hotchkiss of Hotchkiss and Benedict was Clark B(eers) Hotchkiss. They were in business for only a couple of years (1834-36); C. Hotchkiss later turned to the manufacture of hats and carpets.
     
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  21. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    This is the L.S. Hotchkiss I picked up this morning. Pretty dusty from many years in a basement. The graining on the case is really strong. The wood dial is a little rough but original. I have the original hands, weight and pendulum. Though the glass looks okay, I'm sure it's a replacement. Overall, I'm happy with the purchase.

    hotchkiss1a.jpg hotchkiss1b.jpg hotchkiss1c.jpg hotchkiss1d.jpg
     
  22. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Hmmmm. Very interesting. Definitely same case maker, same vintage. Forestville Acorn movement. I don't think I've seen many (if any) clocks by L F Hotchkiss. Nice find. Original tablet, too, in an early style.
     
  23. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Really nice example by Hotchkiss!

    I have basically the same one by the same NYC assembler also with a hand painted tablet. Honestly, I've seen glasses like yours before, especially in NYC assembler labeled clocks. So, I'm not so sure I would right if off as a replacement. These guys were sourcing components and basically putting them together.

    I note the triangular block behind the cornice on your clock. Mine has the same exact thing. Always assumed an addition to be used to secure the clock to a wall so it wouldn't fall off a shelf or mantle. Seeing yours and going back to see pix of other examples, I think it's original.

    The surface on your clock is probably what is on mine now obscured by very darkened varnish. My clock has actually been posted on the MB a few times. Here's one thread:

    Need advice on restoring finish

    Scroll down to postings #'s 9 and 12 for additional pix and a discussion of these clocks...which I really like. Also scroll down to # 30 for JD's posting of an example labeled by FC Andrews with a nice Fenn glass.

    Here's some teaser pix:

    img_5470-jpg-jpg.jpg img_5471-jpg.jpg

    Yes, I think my tablet is original. Kinda slammed in there. It's the reason I bought the clock. Overall, a nice ratty looking thing!

    Of course, now for one of my sometimes unwelcomed commentaries. The linked to thread has much, I feel, terribly misguided advice about refinishing, restoring, etc. which, unfortunately, is all too often offered on the MB.

    Nice clocks all.

    RM
     
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  24. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    clocks4u, It is great to see the original paint graining on your clock. So seldom does it seem to survive. To RM's last point above, so many of our fellow clock aficionados seem to think that the only answer is to make their clocks look new. I had only owned this clock pictured below for about 10 minutes before some well-meaning fellow said, "that will be a really nice clock when you get that ugly old finish off it." Same for the 2nd clock. The 3rd clock is of the same case style as your Hothkiss, this one being Sperry and Shaw, now in Sooth's collection, I think. While the movement is similar it is yet a different form than yours. I include these slightly off topic clocks as encouragement to others to leave old surfaces intact.

    IMG_2213.JPG IMG_2216.JPG 20181215_125145.jpg IMG_2526 (Large).JPG IMG_2527 (Large).JPG IMG_2528.JPG
     
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  25. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    The center clock in this photo is, of course, a very similar case style to clocks4u clock. But, this one differs in that it does possess real rosewood on the columns, set off by oak veneer surfaced blocks under the columns. What the lower center panel looked like originally is now lost to us, but I would think it would have been rosewood grained originally?

    20190121_131658.jpg
     
  26. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Them's some nice clocks.

    JD makes an interesting point about the composition and surface treatment of these cases that I have also brought up previously.

    That is, I have found that not just with this style of clocks, but 4 columns and even some ogees as well by the NYC assemblers, that the cases were a mixture of solid woods, various veneers (oak is a bit unusual for this period but not unheard of with mahogany and rosewood more typical). In my experience, all of this "diversity" was probably unified by the application of a grained/painted or stained uniform surface. Let's face it, these guys were making clocks not unattractive but at the lowest cost possible. You used what was available, I suspect from their other businesses, e.g., supplying frames, moldings, etc.

    There is ample precedent for the practice of using a uniform surface treatment on furniture made from different types of wood. Windsor and "fancy" chairs, for example. As an example of this in clocks from NYC assemblers of this period, I've previously posted a NYC 4 column that demonstrates this practice nicely:

    img_1878-jpg.jpg

    All in one case are pine, mahogany veneer, etc, all unified with an overall grained treatment. Even the rather plain mahogany veneer used is gussied up with graining. It's instructive to see the thread where it is posted to have a sense of how these clocks are typically found, skinned alive:

    Sperry and Shaw

    This clock is discussed in posing # 5.

    Unfortunately, this painted/stained treatment is skinned off by misguided folks who BELIEVE they are returning the clock to the way it left the factory when in fact the way they left the factory was WITH those surface treatments.

    I too apologize for going off topic. As Charo on the Love Boat used to say, "OOO, I do sumsing wrong? (roll the "r" in wrong).

    RM
     
  27. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Per RM: "Let's face it, these guys were making clocks not unattractive but at the lowest cost possible. You used what was available, I suspect from their other businesses, e.g., supplying frames, moldings, etc."

    To that point, "other businesses supplying frames, moldings etc." a recent effort on my part to pin down details as to when ogee clocks were first made led to a number of perhaps relevant findings. The machine to make ogee moldings was first patented/produced in 1828. The earliest ogee clock we think we can pin a date on is a Birge and Ives, which others suggest could date as early as 1830 or 1831. Inventory of one of the very prolific "case makers" of the period showed no tools necessary to make ogee moldings or turn the columns or carve other case parts. (E. Ingraham)

    We have details of wood parts makers thanks to folks like E. Hodges, in his day journals, as well as later writing by Camp and Jerome. There were very prolific makers of parts well outside the names on the labels. While not used on the clocks in this thread it is thought the ogee molding may have been obtained in long strips already completely finished and which were then cut/mitered and assembled into a clock case by others (case assemblers). This is supported in part by the relative commonality of ogee profiles as well as the lack of finish on the mitered edges and the like. If the case finishes were done after assembly finishes would have run down into cracks the moldings meet. This is seldom the case unless a later finish has been applied. The study of construction methods, the availability of materials, the application of finishes and the like are all areas that are under-investigated in my opinion.

    It is 1835, I am working 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week in a slightly improved chicken coop in Bristol. My name is Elias Ingraham. I am making (supplying) 200-700 finished cases a month to C.& L.C. Ives. My only tools can be carried in a tool box. How did I apply a piano finish to all those surfaces? How many people did I have working with me? Who were my suppliers? How did I do all these cases, so many of which still exist nearly 200 years later? Some fair number still wearing original surfaces that are hard to duplicate even with the tools and materials we have today. All food for further thought?
     
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  28. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    I had missed the part where you said you thought the glass was a replacement, so I took the liberty to do a QUICK search of part of my archives to show some other examples. I consider this style of tablet to be "early" and generally of the "NY Resellers" type. They tend to often be found in William S. Johnson, Sperry, Welton, and similar NY seller clocks typically ogees, shelf clocks and column clocks. They tend to not be seen after around 1850. By that point these freehand tablets were too time consuming to produce, and the tablets were being increasingly mass produced to save time (stencils, then decals).

    Here are some examples I pulled out. The only one in the group that is perhaps a little questionable is the Norris North Pillar and Scroll. Perhaps the original glass broke (or was replaced for aesthetic reasons) about 10 years after the clock was made? Seems a bit too plain, and a bit too late for the clock. Otherwise it's still a period glass.

    Column Type I (Poss ST) w BEM Columns 02.jpg George Brown Ogee Case 01.jpg M Welton Ogee 01.jpg M Welton Ogee Clock 01.jpg M Welton Ogee Clock 02.jpg Norris North, Torrington, Conn., 30 hour, time and strike PS 01.JPG Norris North, Torrington, Conn., 30 hour, time and strike PS 02.JPG Sperry & Shaw Ogee 01.jpg Sperry & Shaw Ogee 04.jpg
     
  29. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    I pretty excited that mine does appear to have the original glass. I purchased this, along with several others at a weekend estate sale and didn't take a close look at it at the time. It just didn't seem to be the glass I expected from that style of clock. The last ogee pictured shows a similar style. I wonder if it was from the same glass painter. Who was the maker/seller of that clock?

    The movement in the Hotchkiss looks like an unsigned version of the one pictured in the Andrews at the top. Is this what you referred to above as a Manross
     
  30. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Your Hotchkiss movement is a J.C. Brown product. A Manross movement is shown in the 6th attachment of post 24 above. They are somewhat similar in appearance.
     
  31. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Your clock and mine have an unsigned JC Brown/Forestville 8 day brass time and strike weight driven movement. A pretty movement that's almost a shame to hide behind a dial! Good thing that the central opening in the dials are big enough to get a good look at them.

    Here's the movement in the clock I posted here:

    img_5473-jpg.jpg

    Here's yours:

    hotchkiss1d-jpg.jpg

    See Roberts and Taylor, "Johnathan Clark Brown & the Forestville Manufacturing Co", pages 77-8, figures 68-70. It's either type 2.12 or 2.13. Note the movement shown in figures 68 and 70 are stamped W.S. Johnson, a NYC assembler. I've seen other unsigned examples of this movement in NYC assembler clocks. Clearly supplied both "customized" movements with the buyer's signature and unsigned versions. Must have helped JCB to pay the bills...something that he often couldn't do.

    Since we're on the topic, there was a 30 hour version of that movement. It is occasionally found coupled with fusee's in clocks labeled by Brewster & Ingraham! Here's one from a clock that is posted on my fusee thread some place:

    img_4245-jpg.jpg img_4213-jpg.jpg

    Also see this for more info:

    https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/2010/articles/2012/399/399_533_544.pdf

    Scroll down to page 535. Love Joyce Wahler's clear, informative and well researched contributions to the Bulletin.

    The movement that Sooth shows in his above video is a in fact by Manross who not only made his own clocks, but supplied movements to others. No surprise it would show up in the clocks of NYC assemblers. Yes, similar:

    manross.PNG

    Nice but not quite as pretty as the JCB/Forestville.

    There's a great article about Manross that discusses his product:

    https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/1990/articles/1993/286/286_541.pdf

    Whoops. Me go wandering off topic again!

    RM
     
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  32. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    A question for RM. Doing a forum search, you were commenting in the post "need advise on restoring a finish" You provided a link to a Bulletin article about a Hotchkiss ogee clock with a NY Cortland St address. How would I find out the time frame Hotchkiss was at the Water Ave address? Your clock pictured above and mine have the same address. The label on mine is all there. It was tough to make out the printer info as it's very small and at the bottom of the label. It appears to read, Chatterton & Christ, Cheap Cash Printers, 136 Water St, Over the Alhambra. If it does read Cheap, I find that funny. I wonder what Alhambra refers to. Maybe a stream that was present in the 1840s?
     
  33. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    What I have done in the past is:

    >Check the bulletin. Sometimes info about printers is listed.

    >I also google the printer name. I've actually come up with info that way.

    >NYC directories will have that info.

    >Mike Bailey has a particular interest in labels, including their use for dating. I don't know if he might have some info?

    >Make something up...just kidding!

    RM
     
  34. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Clocks4u: All my files are named. Hover over the image(s) and you will see who the maker is. The last clock is Sperry & Shaw. Same vintage (1840-50).

    For what it's worth, there is also a 30 hour version of the Manross movement:
    Ansonia Brass & Copper Co Ogee 11.JPG

    And there are 30 hour (shorter) versions of these column clocks, as I posted one example in post #11. I have about 145 images of similar column clocks and many are unusual NY area makers, lots are Sperry, and a few are by Jerome.

    I don't know why there's a duplicate image, and it won't let me remove it.
    Ansonia Brass & Copper Co Ogee 11.JPG
     
  35. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    I was able to search a digital copy of Doggett's 1845-1846 NYC business directory. Chatterton & Crist, Printers were located at 136 Water St. In the same directory, L.S. Hotchkiss & Co. (clocks) was located at 127 Water St. By the 1847-48 directory, Chatterton & Crist had moved to 139 Water St. and L.S. Hotchkiss was no longer in the directory. Hotchkiss doesn't show up in the 1842-43 directory. Since he was at the Cortland street address in 1844, his business only lasted a couple of years.
     

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