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Exceptional M.I. Tobias & Co. ?

Dr. Jon

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Gorgeous watch!!

10 seconds per day is very good but how consistent is this and under what conditions.
 

svenedin

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That's very good timekeeping for a watch that age. I'd settle for that!
 

John Matthews

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Hi PL - I remember this Massey II watch from your previous post and the discussion regarding the balance.

I have a record of #31959. a Massey III (according to the seller) in a silver hunter case hallmarked London 1839/40 by Charles Hubberd. The movement is, apart from the identification of the Massey type, identical to yours, EXCEPT it has a solid gold(?) balance. Of the M I Tobias & Co escapements that I have recorded, your example has the lowest serial number with a split compensated balance. The next I have recorded with such a balance is #37115. I checked Edidin very quickly and couldn't see any early examples of compensated balances

I agree with JP such timekeeping is (more) than acceptable.

John
 
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PapaLouies

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Gorgeous watch!!

10 seconds per day is very good but how consistent is this and under what conditions.
The third of three 24 hour runs face-up. Please not the location of the regulator a bit Slow of Center.
Regards, PL
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi richiec, am I reading the number right 29788, and is the case made in America. A very nice and interesting watch, your ancestor had great taste, I wonder if he bought it from Henry Tobias in New York??

Allan
 

SKennedy

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In my view a well made English lever watch of that time would have been expected to have that sort of timekeeping when new. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is always easy or even possible to achieve it all this time later, depending on the wear that has taken place and the quality of previous repair work.
 

svenedin

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Allan C. Purcell

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Correct, it was like that when I bought it, so I had no worries about taking it down, but I do know someone who will have no trouble putting it right eventually. :)
I think it's M.I. not M.J.
Regards, PL
PL, if it was a Swiss watchmaker and he wanted to fake an English watch by Roskell and he came across this watch, what do you think he would engrave on the fake watch.

Regards,

Allan.
 

Ethan Lipsig

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Now that this thread has wandered into the guts of Tobias rack lever watches, here (courtesy of my watchmaker) are photos of the innards of my only Tobias, a circa 1815 M.I. Tobias rack lever, #2,700, in an 18k OF pair case probably by Nathaniel Lee.

IMG_8958_edited.JPG IMG_1701.jpg IMG_1696.jpg IMG_1698.jpg IMG_1698-copy_edited.jpg
 

Keith R...

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PL, Later MI Tobias, 17J, about 1861/62, at 3 seconds per day. I'm running it
today. I purchased it serviced.

Second one closer in SN#. (American case).

I have one from 1827 but a conventional train with gold balance wheel (17J).
American gold case.

Great find PL.

Keith R...

100_2265 (800x600).jpg mit2 (800x729).jpg MIT6 (800x662) - Copy.jpg amit2 (1200x799).jpg amit3 (1200x799).jpg amit8 (1200x799).jpg amit5 (1200x799).jpg amit6 (1200x799).jpg
 
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Keith R...

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PL, I still run this one every so often, a 17J conventional train MI Tobias in an
American gold open face case with Faux hallmarks, circa 1827. This one at
about plus 10 seconds per day.

So PL's thread shows the accuracy of this maker, along with examples of both
Liverpool runners and a conventional train, as shone in his post. The other example,
Ethan's 11J rack lever.

*Note, faux marks by an American case maker using the Helsby's case markings
out of the UK. Gold dial made in the UK for the movement.

Keith R...

mitobias (800x759).jpg MIT5B (421x558).jpg MIT5 (600x558).jpg MIT5A (571x558).jpg
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Keith R...


Hi Keith, thought you would like to see the watch below, and if PL had any idea when Morris Tobias started his business. (William Duck came from Ludham Norfolk)c1800 Loomes)

The Case is hallmarked London 1793 Not too sure about the case maker looks like IT for John Turner London?



2222-26.jpg 2222-27.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,

The date letter in the case, ('U'), appears to be for 1795/6; it can't be later than 1798 because that's when the duty mark of the king's head was discontinued.

Regards,

Graham
 
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John Pavlik

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Agree Graham, movement number appears to indicate an earlier production date ... Along with the Wapping address ..Unless the movements were not number sequentially... ?
 
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John Matthews

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John - I really do like this watch, particularly the cock and the plate engraving. I find it very pleasing to the eye.

I don't suppose there are any marks on the inside of the well fitted cap.

Not entirely sure about the case maker's mark

upload_2020-8-18_23-10-34.png

As Graham indicated lower case 'u' for London 1795/96, with the monarch's head duty mark having a horizontal base in an oval cameo, used from 1787-97. The identification of the maker depends on the mark above incuse WM. Is it a coronet or a star? If the former, then William Marshall, he registered such a mark on 4 September 1735 - some 60 years previous. Seem somewhat unlikely. If the latter, which I favour, then probably William Mean who registered marks in 1783, 1791, 1799 and 1800. From these registration dates, this seems more likely. However, the first mark had a fleur-de-lys above, the next two simply WM incuse and only on 5 October 1800 did he register the mark with the star above. Nevertheless I suspect the case may have been made by Mean and the punch was used a few years before it was registered - but its a case of 'you pays your money and makes your choice'.

John

EDIT - this from Edidin's part I

upload_2020-8-18_23-50-54.png
I assume there must be additional serial number/year data - from John's last post
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Nice watch John, thanks for sharing. It appears Morris Tobias was born in 1763 so the math fits 14+7=21-free 1784/5.

Allan.
 

Halda Sweden

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Morris Tobias, Wapping, London No 2143.
Case perhaps made by; William Mean, 19 st John Lane, London, year 1800

Is there any more known watches of this type from Morris Tobias. I call it a observation pocket watch, but some call them doctors watches. I know of one more exampel in M Edinins smal book...

I read that Tobias Morris was a member of the Freemason society. Perhaps a good reason why this watch has a lot of symbols...?

Best rgds
Peter B

2.jpg 3.jpg P1210744.JPG P1210741.JPG P1210742.JPG P1210745.JPG
 
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gmorse

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Hi Peter,
I call it a observation pocket watch, but some call them doctors watches.
Yes, this type of dial is often known as a doctor's watch, and this format is the only one which can properly be named as such; other watches with 'normal' dials and balance brakes are not doctor's watches, and indeed, probably few of this type were actually owned by doctors.

It certainly has several Masonic symbols in the balance cock.

Regards,

Graham
 

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