Exceptional M.I. Tobias & Co. ?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by PapaLouies, Jul 23, 2020.

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  1. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

    Apr 14, 2010
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    IMG_2029.JPG IMG_2030.JPG
    This 177 year old watch is currently losing 10 seconds per day.
    Is this exceptional or typical?
    Regards, PL
     
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  2. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Gorgeous watch!!

    10 seconds per day is very good but how consistent is this and under what conditions.
     
  3. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Very Nice PL ! I think 10 seconds is very acceptable... Has it been service lately?
     
  4. svenedin

    svenedin Registered User

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    That's very good timekeeping for a watch that age. I'd settle for that!
     
  5. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #5 John Matthews, Jul 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
    Hi PL - I remember this Massey II watch from your previous post and the discussion regarding the balance.

    I have a record of #31959. a Massey III (according to the seller) in a silver hunter case hallmarked London 1839/40 by Charles Hubberd. The movement is, apart from the identification of the Massey type, identical to yours, EXCEPT it has a solid gold(?) balance. Of the M I Tobias & Co escapements that I have recorded, your example has the lowest serial number with a split compensated balance. The next I have recorded with such a balance is #37115. I checked Edidin very quickly and couldn't see any early examples of compensated balances

    I agree with JP such timekeeping is (more) than acceptable.

    John
     
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  6. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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    No, PL
     
  7. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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    The third of three 24 hour runs face-up. Please not the location of the regulator a bit Slow of Center.
    Regards, PL
     
  8. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    I just had Chris Radek repair my 173 year old Massey 3 Tobias and it keeps time almost to the second over two days. It was my great, great, great, great grandfathers watch from 1847.

    IMG_3388.JPG IMG_3387.JPG
     
  9. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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    richiec, Thanks for letting me know it's a Massey III.
    Regards, PL
     
  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi richiec, am I reading the number right 29788, and is the case made in America. A very nice and interesting watch, your ancestor had great taste, I wonder if he bought it from Henry Tobias in New York??

    Allan
     
  11. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

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    In my view a well made English lever watch of that time would have been expected to have that sort of timekeeping when new. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is always easy or even possible to achieve it all this time later, depending on the wear that has taken place and the quality of previous repair work.
     
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  12. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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    It's 29723. PL
     
  13. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    The case is indeed American by Benedict Brothers of New York City, 18K.
     
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  14. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I thought you would like to see below, this M.J. Tobias Rack lever stripped. I took it down because the chain was broken inside, all I have to do now is put back together.

    333-3.JPG 333-2.JPG 333-1.JPG 333-4.JPG

    Thanks for the number PL.

    Allan.
     
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  15. svenedin

    svenedin Registered User

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  16. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Correct, it was like that when I bought it, so I had no worries about taking it down, but I do know someone who will have no trouble putting it right eventually. :)
    PL, if it was a Swiss watchmaker and he wanted to fake an English watch by Roskell and he came across this watch, what do you think he would engrave on the fake watch.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  18. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User

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    No question an early M.I. Tobias & Co. Rack Lever.
    333-3[1].JPG 3f52f8952e4de3d29e9741eb845b9cbd[1].jpg
    Regards, PL
     
  19. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I take it you know the date this alphabet was first used PL?
     
  20. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Now that this thread has wandered into the guts of Tobias rack lever watches, here (courtesy of my watchmaker) are photos of the innards of my only Tobias, a circa 1815 M.I. Tobias rack lever, #2,700, in an 18k OF pair case probably by Nathaniel Lee.

    IMG_8958_edited.JPG IMG_1701.jpg IMG_1696.jpg IMG_1698.jpg IMG_1698-copy_edited.jpg
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    [​IMG]

    Allan.
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #22 Keith R..., Jul 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
    PL, Later MI Tobias, 17J, about 1861/62, at 3 seconds per day. I'm running it
    today. I purchased it serviced.

    Second one closer in SN#. (American case).

    I have one from 1827 but a conventional train with gold balance wheel (17J).
    American gold case.

    Great find PL.

    Keith R...

    100_2265 (800x600).jpg mit2 (800x729).jpg MIT6 (800x662) - Copy.jpg amit2 (1200x799).jpg amit3 (1200x799).jpg amit8 (1200x799).jpg amit5 (1200x799).jpg amit6 (1200x799).jpg
     
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  23. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #23 Keith R..., Aug 3, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    PL, I still run this one every so often, a 17J conventional train MI Tobias in an
    American gold open face case with Faux hallmarks, circa 1827. This one at
    about plus 10 seconds per day.

    So PL's thread shows the accuracy of this maker, along with examples of both
    Liverpool runners and a conventional train, as shone in his post. The other example,
    Ethan's 11J rack lever.

    *Note, faux marks by an American case maker using the Helsby's case markings
    out of the UK. Gold dial made in the UK for the movement.

    Keith R...

    mitobias (800x759).jpg MIT5B (421x558).jpg MIT5 (600x558).jpg MIT5A (571x558).jpg
     
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