Most visitors online was 1240 , on 24 Nov 2020
So far we have mostly focused on "power bandits inside the movement". I believe we ruled out issues with the strike train while keeping in mind that it is normal for the strike train to rob a little power going into warning. One thing we have not looked at is the escapement. I don't think we have even see a picture of it. Assuming that you have enough weight, and no bandits in the going train, what's left is the escapement and the coupling (crutch) to the pendulum. But we all know the definition of "assume", so can you first please verify the following:Well, I'm back to this.
Shucked it down. No noticeable wear in pivot holes. Smooth broached them earlier. Polished pivots again earlier. Re-bushed front winding arbor pivots.
Spotted no obvious conflict between wheels & pinions.
Back together oiled and on test stand.
Runs strongly for 2 or 3 minutes, pendulum loses amplitude, suddenly stops. Does same thing several times. Obvious diagnosis: EW not getting enough juice to power the pendulum.
Spotted no power bandits inside the movement. If they are hiding there, I cain't see them. Maybe not enough power being input. Weight is 3 lb. Jacked it up to 4 lb.
That oughtta drive the pendulum. Right?
Didn't. No change in behavior. Diagnosis probably wrong: not lack of power to EW
OR power thief in movement strong enough to overcome 4 lb weights. Hiding where?
With all the hours I have invested in this creature, I can't afford to declare defeat and give it back without payment. But I may have to. If the patient dies, the doctor still gets paid. If the clock won't come to life, the clocksmith hasn't fulfilled his half of the deal. I wouldn't know how to charge a customer for not fixing his clock.
I need to get this sumbidge out of my life, and on to other clocks a-waiting.
I would agree. When it comes to Vienna regulators that I get in for repair, roughly 1 in 10 have the escapement out of adjustment. It is always critical to confirm that the escapement is functioning properly.Hey Bang,
A thought just occurred to me a while back I had a similar problem and after polishing the pallets etc. they were inadvertently installed reversed. Funny thing is they looked fine. But clock exhibited the problems you describe.
Might have a look at the angles of the pallets.
Hope this might help.
This is absolutely true, but unfortunately, I'm afraid that many inexperienced operators, especially those who's experience is mostly with over-powered American clocks with recoil escapements, may incorrectly conclude that a precision escapement is functioning properly when it isn't. It is easy for one to conclude that an escapement is functioning as it should as long as it "tick- tocks" when the pendulum is swung and doesn't hang up or skip teeth. Two big problems surrounding the type of escapement usually found in movements such as we are discussing are: 1) someone who doesn't understand all they know has already messed with the escapement, and 2) In an attempt to "fix" a clock that won't run one jumps to the conclusion without proof that the escapement IS the problem and proceeds to adjust everything that can be adjusted whether it is the problem or not thereby creating additional issues.I would agree. When it comes to Vienna regulators that I get in for repair, roughly 1 in 10 have the escapement out of adjustment. It is always critical to confirm that the escapement is functioning properly.(emphasis added)
Good advice generally, but wear can affect many parts, and combined with improper adjustments, and such things as previously install bushings with incorrect depthing, etc, it is not uncommon for a clock to present for repair that has more than one distinct problem. The point is still well taken - identify the problem before fixing it or one is likely to generate more problems.There will always be a distinct problem. There should never be any "maybe" or "what if" in the scenario. By correcting for such "what if" situations, you can often times end up shooting your self in the foot, and then be forced to go back and undo the damage you may have done after the true problem presents itself.
Yes, I said a whole lot more than I meant to, and didn't totally read it through. I am just glad that I was able to get a point in there somewhere.Good advice generally, but wear can affect many parts, and combined with improper adjustments, and such things as previously install bushings with incorrect depthing, etc, it is not uncommon for a clock to present for repair that has more than one distinct problem. The point is still well taken - identify the problem before fixing it or one is likely to generate more problems.RC
Since we all know Murphy's Law I would like to share the second and more important half.These things are not magic, nor are they haunted. They are machines that operate entirely upon simple physics. What works on paper will work in real life. If you can't say with confidence that the clock will run, there is no point in testing it. No amount of crossed fingers will prevent the problem returning with a vengeance..
Well Tom, I think "Ofca's collory" is something of an oxymoron. Hostility is an emotional response not "simple physics". Simple machines obeying the laws of physics are incapable of emotion and therefore incapable of hostility. If one accepts that mechanical clocks can be hostile, then we acknowledge that they can have "attitude". If they have attitude then they CAN be evil, which is what Bangs originally concluded. It therefore follows that he should make no further attempt to repair this clock and seek the services of an exorcist before it takes serious revenge and attempts to physically injure him.Since we all know Murphy's Law I would like to share the second and more important half.
Ofca's collory states that "All mechanical objects are inherently hostile".
Hope this helps.
Well if you are expecting failure you will certainly not be disappointed. First have confidence in what you have already done and the tests and observations that you have already made. This is not the time to be talking about re-depthing wheels and pinions. Unless I'm mistaken, you didn't do any bushing work and it is safe to assume that the original pivot locations are correct and that the clock did run OK at one time. You have checked the going train and found that everything is free and turning properly so for now have confidence in your evaluation and assume that it is OK. That leaves the escapement. You said...(bangster)
Pardon me for whining, gang, but I've just about had it. There are other clocks waiting for months to get my attention, and I owe it to the owners to make some progress on them. There are more suggestions to follow up, more wheels to spin, but this will have to come to an end soon. (Growl, mumble..)
That type of deadbeat escapement functions exactly like any other deadbeat escapement with a solid anchor. The biggest problem with the adjustable pallets is that someone may have already messed with them............but we don't know that so for the moment assume that they have not been messed with. I'm sure you know the basics of adjusting a deadbeat escapement. Forget all you know about recoil escapements, and forget about attempting to get maximum pendulum swing by setting the verge as close as possible without binding - that won't work here. If you can't get a video, it may be hard to see visually but you must confirm that the escape wheel teeth are landing on the dead face and not on the impulse face. Stand on your head, use mirrors or what ever but try to confirm this. One test is to very very slowly advance the crutch until a tooth drops. Advancing the crutch further should result in no movement of the EW. Repeat but this time after the tooth just drops move the crutch backward ever so slightly which should result in no movement of the EW. If the EW moves during either test the teeth are not on the dead face. If the teeth are not landing on the dead face the clock will not run or will run weakly. If the verge is set too deep there will be too much lock and there will not be enough impulse to drive the pendulum far enough to release a tooth and the clock will stop. Reduce the depth of the anchor to the point where the EW teeth just lands on the edge of the dead face but not on the impulse face and not on the line between the impulse and dead faces. Adjusting the depth of the anchor should be something you can do. There is no need discussing any other possibilities until you can confirm whether the escapement is working properly. Don't attempt to adjust or reshape the pallet nibs if that is beyond your skill level, but you can adjust the verge depth if necessary without causing any damage and you can confirm whether the escapement is or is not functioning properly. That I believe is your next step. If that does not yield success, then we look at one more thing....... or you farm the job out to become someone else's headache.If we are talking about reshaping and adjusting removable deadbeat pallets, we're talking beyond my skill level
you need one of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079G9QWKW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1(a) It's impossible to make a live action video of the escapement, since it's buried down between solid plates. Only chance is a shot straight down through the top, which doesn't give a helpful perspective.
There are usually a variety of those borescopes on eBay. Be sure to get one with a focal length appropriate for what you want to see. Caution: the one I purchased directed me to an unsafe website to download software. I found that the camera softwear already on my PC worked just fine.'Cept they don't have any for sale.
Meanwhile, both the Evil Vienna and the wretched Ansonia with the Brocot escapement are off to Dick Feldman, to see what he can discover.
pls remove hands and dial, and then replace hands and upload some video of it running... and stopping.The current status of the Evil Vienna. Dick Feldman worked his magic on it and got it to run reliably for him. Shipped it back to me, and I can't get it to run for more than 20 minutes. Go figure. I been here before, alas. All I can do is continue to do stuff until something works. Light a candle for me.
Bangs, take a step back and avoid doing "stuff" before you identify the problem or you could end up making it worse. I feel confident that Dick fixed everything that was broken, so you should not need to "fix" anything unless you broke something setting it up. I would suggest that you give Dick a call and talk through the problem. Other than yourself, he is the only one who has seen this clock up close and personal.The current status of the Evil Vienna. Dick Feldman worked his magic on it and got it to run reliably for him. Shipped it back to me, and I can't get it to run for more than 20 minutes. Go figure. I been here before, alas. All I can do is continue to do stuff until something works. Light a candle for me.
The problem I have with your suggestion is that Dick serviced this clock and made everything well and had the clock running OK.One sneaky culprit resulting in intermittent error is end play.
The high speed test is good for revealing the evil.
High speed test, remove anchor/palettes, oil all bushings, wind fully, let spin.
On the first spin listen for pops, pings, etc. sounds. Should be a smooth whirr sound, but old movement has their flaws. In particular listen for the repeated sound and identify it with which gears revolution matches. Indicates location of troubled mesh from things like bad tooth to bent arbor/pivot.
To get an idea of end play trouble, while movement is spinning freely held in hand, flip movement in different orientations ( top plate up/down, etc.) to see if any hesitation from gears floating towards top/bottom plates. The idea here is to establish if any pivot shoulders are tapered and drifting into a bind. This also can reveal gears with too much end play. A gear that floats too near edge can result in binding mesh.
The next trick with High speed test for end play while spinning is to gently squeeze top a bottom plates between post counting on flex of plates to shrink end play space. This test can sometimes locate a gear that is prone to stop because it severely lacks end play or tapered pivot.
You can reach in with blade a test by scooting gears individually from side to side in different combinations. Then High speed test.
The high speed test is good for lower gear distortions as well. Part of the problem with Low speed test (couple clicks of power, mark where stops, look for repeated pattern) is it fails on bent pivot/arbors on low end gears. Why it fails is because things like typical bent arbor (mainspring breaks, shochwave bends arbor etc.) is the bend can be ever so slight, undetectable to the eye. As that gear turns the mesh binds in slowly stronger progress. Intermittent by failing sometimes or not. Plus, who has the time to repeat low speed test over and over till main wheel makes a few revolutions.
The High speed test resolves this by listening closely. Matching the pulse to the culprit gear.