Everybody Loves B.W. Raymond

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by onsite, Jul 3, 2016.

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  1. onsite

    onsite Registered User
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    Mar 6, 2011
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    Taking a long shot here, does anyone have Elgin B.W. Raymond #16308143 16s 19j 3/4 plate Gr. 372?

    $_57 (4).jpg
     
  2. Ticktinker

    Ticktinker Registered User

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    Sorry I have movements beginning with 16 million 200k and 900k.
    The lower one is a full plate 17 jewel and the higher one is 15 jewel 1/2 plate plus a bridge.
     
  3. Paul Sullivan

    Paul Sullivan Registered User
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    Onsite,

    I don't have 16308143 but I do have 16308279, from the same run of 1000 movements and quite close to to it. The run was produced about 1911-12. Some 6-7 years prior to your service chit.

    Elgin 16s BWR 16308279  sml.JPG Elgin 16s BWR 16308279 Case side.JPG Elgin 16s BWR 16308279 Dial (3).JPG Elgin 16s BWR 16308279 Dial crop.JPG
    Somewhere along the line (many years later I expect) mine was re-cased in a Star W.C. Co. chrome plated base metal "Defiance" SB&B case. As there are no additional screw marks to be seen, it would seem to claim first occupancy.

    Paul
     
  4. onsite

    onsite Registered User
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    Thanks for looking for this watch, chances are slim but one day I may come across it.

    That's a nice watch, I have an 11M BWR 19j Gr. 240 but they have been tarted up a tad since then with gilt lettering and nicer wheels, Elgin does nice jewel settings.
     
  5. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    Do these represent BWR p.w. model earliest and last? Art

    img_8747copy.jpg bwr 43,47 d copyx.jpg
     
  6. Paul Sullivan

    Paul Sullivan Registered User
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    I'm not sure of the earliest, but I think the 571's were produced to 1954 or 55 (an "I" prefix represented 54 million), so yes, the very last BWRs. 590 came in after the 478 in 1944 and produced until 1948 which would make it the next to last.

    590 case lighter a.JPG
    590 (1945)
     

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  7. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    PAUL appreciate you confirming the 571 as last BWR. First BWR watch was first Elgin serial 101 in 1867. I believe then that serial 19400 of 1868 is same as original model thus well represents the first BWR with its fine finish and 18k original case. Art
     
  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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  9. Paul Sullivan

    Paul Sullivan Registered User
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    #9 Paul Sullivan, Jul 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
    Art,

    Your early model BWR is a beauty indeed! Might I ask if it's still a decent runner? The earliest BWR I have is Grade 116 model 5, P/S from 1892, bought a couple of years ago. Came in a fat Dueber Silverine case and seemed to be the first occupant as no other screw marks to be seen. Certainly needs a C.O.A. as it's quite dirty!

    View attachment 309891
    Onsite mentioned the 18s 240. I'm a bit of an 18s nut and I prefer the 3/4 18 sizes like the 214, 240, and 412 as compared to most other 18s watches that tend to be full plate. Elgin used this style in 18, 16, and 12 sizes. And right up to the end with the 571. This style and their 3FB's tend to be my favorites when it comes to Elgin.
    214 18s Veritas vert.JPG 240 18s BWR 13481476 (1913) crop.JPG 303 12s 25377137 (7) O.F .JPG 310 HC 12s.JPG 388 16s Father Time 16803872  (8).JPG
    214 18s 240 18s 303 12s 310 12s HC 388 16s

    412 18s.JPG 478 BWR 16s 30690910 1928.JPG

    412 18s 478 16s 478 16s

    Also the addition of the reed/Ball type whip spring regulators in their later 16s watches gave them a better look as opposed to their ubiquitous Mosely travel nuts. Speaking of which, when did Elgin introduce these and on what grade/model? The 478 above is from 1928.
     
  10. artbissell

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    PAUL: Nice job with the interesting comments and photos much appreciated. 19400 is a rare survivor. Family preserved with later inheritor names and dates engraved. Runs well but maybe never serviced. Art
     

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  11. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    That would depend on whether you mean pocket watches only. If not, then the last B.W. Raymond was a wrist watch with a Swiss movement cased by Elgin, in the early-mid 1960s. Before that, there were two US-built movements, the 730A and the 780, both 13/0 wrist watch movements, with Durabalance and hack setting, that were labeled as BW Raymond on the dial. All three were for railroad service.
     
  12. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    Gene: I was wondering if last Elgin made w.w. was BWR marked. Here the interesting 730 you mention that was. Art

    IMG_9001xx.jpg IMG_8903ax.jpg IMG_8902zx.jpg
     
  13. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Art, the last Elgin made wrist watch was almost certainly a ladies' model. It seems Elgin continued making Ladies movements after they stopped making mens.

    The 730A used in the BWR is a variant of the 730, and includes hack setting and a dynamically poised balance wheel which was poised in the movement using special machinery.

    The BWR wrist watch also had a soft iron dial, and when cased in gold or gold filled, a soft iron dust cover. This was to protect from the magnetic fields around the generators in diesel/electric locomotives.

    A friend of mine picked up BW Raymond number 198, 98th in the very first run of watches from Elgin! (they started with 101)
     
  14. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    Gene; very interesting well done description of the last Elgin designed and built rr watches. Almost 100 years of fine products. The 730A BWR w.w. deserves better appreciation. You or anyone report it here in w.w. category? Art
     
  15. artbissell

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    #15 artbissell, Jul 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
    Search in w.w. Message Board discloses BWR 730A w.w. much discussion about fine technology but not the old traditional good Elgin quality. Which was the best quality 16s BWR? I favor the war time gold plate 1943, but 571 may be best performer? Art

    bwr 43,47 d copyx.jpg 23j 16smaxx_r1.jpg
     
  16. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    This one was bought by my wife's great grandfather in Spokane (probably) circa 1903. He had been a sergeant in the Union Army during the Civil War. Later, he became sheriff in Paducah County, Kentucky, then later a farmer in Kansas. When the tornados drove him further west, he homesteaded at Spangle, Washington where he also opened a hardware store. This 18-size BWR was from the second run. Who knows why he chose this dial and hands!

    image.jpg image.jpeg
     
  17. Luis Casillas

    Luis Casillas Registered User

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    Yep, that's a very early B.W. Raymond. Distinctive characteristics:
    • "Sharp" barrel bridge (instead of the curved one typical of later full plate Elgins)
    • Fancy cursive "Elgin, Ill's" signature (only found among Elgin serial numbers up to 50,000 or so)
    • Serial # on barrel bridge (only found on early B.W. Raymond, up to maybe 1877)
    • "Burt's Patent" marking instead of "Patent Pinion"
    • No patent regulator
    Not shown in the photo, but the watch should have a single-sunk "National Watch Co." dial, and more likely than not blued fleur-de-lys hands.
     
  18. Luis Casillas

    Luis Casillas Registered User

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    Here's a B.W. Raymond wristwatch, either a 730A or a 780 (don't recall which):

    B.W. Raymond wristwatch-1030496.jpg
     
  19. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I do love the B W Raymond's(in the order I purchased them):
    1928 16s grade 478
    1887 18s grade 27
    1912 12s grade 193
    1912 16s grade 372
    1942 grade 581
    I think I only want one more and that's a grade 240(with jeweled barrel)


    Rob
     

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