European collection

[pocket2100]

Thought I'd share a picture of my European collection I've been working on for about two years. I was primarily collecting US watches prior to this, but I believe I enjoy the European ones much more due to the broader history that goes with them.

The most frustrating part of collecting European watches is deciding which side to display when you put them in the case.

And thank you to everyone here that has helped with some knowledge and history, it's been quite an exciting ride to research these with you all.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

This looks like a fascinating collection! I have always had a love of these old European keywind watches. I am guessing that most of your have verge escapements. Do you know if you have any other escapement varieties? The escapements are the most intriguing aspect to me.

 

[aucaj]

Please could you post more photos? It is a excellent collection!

 

[Dr. Jon]

I too would like to see more photos but when you do please post the photos of each watch in a separate thread.

 

[pocket2100]

This looks like a fascinating collection! I have always had a love of these old European keywind watches. I am guessing that most of your have verge escapements. Do you know if you have any other escapement varieties? The escapements are the most intriguing aspect to me.

Yes, I believe some on the right side are using a cylinder escapement. I do not believe I have any early or mid 18th century non-verge escapements. It's something that has been on my mind though and would like to get an early example of a cylinder escapement watch. They weren't too common at that time though as you know.

 

[gmorse]

Hi pocket2100,

t's something that has been on my mind though and would like to get an early example of a cylinder escapement watch. They weren't too common at that time though as you know.

Cylinders were being made from the late 1720s, but they were always at the luxury end of the market from makers such as George Graham, (who perfected the design), and Thomas Mudge & William Dutton, (his former apprentices).

Regards,

Graham

 

[aucaj]

John Ellicott produced a lot of cylinder watches throughout the mid to late 1700s. You may be able to find one by him available.

 

[pocket2100]

Please could you post more photos? It is a excellent collection!

I've posted about a few of them already on here with some pictures. I plan to get around to take detailed pictures of each of them eventually and post them to hear your thoughts and get some additional history on them.

The ones I've posted to date I have printed off some of the comments you all have made about them to add to my collection of history that stays with the watches. Maybe a few hundred years from now someone will be thankful that I preserved those details by printing them. Or maybe someone will add me to a historical list of known tree butchers... who can say.

 

[pocket2100]

Cylinders were being made from the late 1720s, but they were always at the luxury end of the market from makers such as George Graham, (who perfected the design), and Thomas Mudge & William Dutton, (his former apprentices).

I've been keeping an eye out for one from Graham - that will likely be a while though.

 

[aucaj]

I've been keeping an eye out for one from Graham - that will likely be a while though.

You, me and the most other collectors are looking for a Graham They occasionally come up.

 

[rstl99]

A number of French (Parisian) watchmakers produced watches with the cylinder escapement as early as the mid-1700's, or even before. It started with Julien Le Roy obtaining a cylinder movement from Graham. He inspected and tried it out, as did his brother Pierre-François. They weren't exactly big fans of that escapement, felt it needed too frequent oiling, and preferred to use the good old verge escapement in their watches. But there were other french makers who really adopted the cylinder early on, including Godefroy, who had a very public debate with Pierre-François Le Roy in the paper Mercure de France of the time. I've documented it in my 2020 article in NAWCC on PFLR, for those who may be interested:

https://www.ottawaclocksandwatches.ca/images/Education/Julien%20LeRoy%20Article%20by%20R.%20St-Louis_Nov_2020.pdf

Hope this helps.
Robert

 

[gmorse]

Hi pocket2100,

I've been keeping an eye out for one from Graham - that will likely be a while though.

Yes, they don't come up very often, and when they do, the name commands a considerable premium. However, if you're looking for an English cylinder, don't worry too much about the signature but just examine the quality; I've seen very fine cylinders, some with centre seconds, (even more desirable), signed for relatively less famous makers. Thomas Wright in the Poultry is not totally unknown, and neither is John Ellicott, but John Starey is rather more under the radar, and they produced very fine watches with centre seconds. Ellicott used a different centre seconds mechanism from the more usual George Graham pattern.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Incroyable]

There was a very fine late 18th century gold pair case cylinder with center seconds by the London maker Alexander Hare recently at a German auction.

 

[aucaj]

There was a very fine late 18th century gold pair case cylinder with center seconds by the London maker Alexander Hare recently at a German auction.

Yes, but I think for that price I would prefer a George Graham. Personally, I do not like that auction house. IMO, they inflate their prices beyond market value, which why many items do not sell in their auctions.

 

[Incroyable]

Yes, but I think for that price I would prefer a George Graham. Personally, I do not like that auction house. IMO, they inflate their prices beyond market value, which why many items do not sell in their auctions.

Is it possible buy a George Graham cylinder in an original gold pair case for around 3,800 Euros which is what the Hare sold for? The watch weighed 132 grams of which at least half was probably the gold case which was likely 22 carats. Just the scrap value alone is going to be close to $3,300 USD.

This Graham sold for more than 15,000 GBP 16 years ago.

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4700661

This silver one was 13,750 GBP:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2017/george-daniels-20th-century-innovator-l17055/lot.17.html

Tangentially it's been my observation that almost all good antique English watches are sold out of Germany. One rarely sees high quality English watches at UK or US auctions.

 

[aucaj]

Is it possible buy a George Graham cylinder in an original gold pair case for around 3,800 Euros which is what the Hare sold for? The watch weighed 132 grams of which at least half was probably the gold case which was likely 22 carats. Just the scrap value alone is going to be close to $3,300 USD.

This Graham sold for more than 15,000 GBP 16 years ago.

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4700661

This silver one was 13,750 GBP:

https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2017/george-daniels-20th-century-innovator-l17055/lot.17.html

Tangentially it's been my observation that almost all good antique English watches are sold out of Germany. One rarely sees high quality English watches at UK or US auctions.

I should have been more specific. I was not referring to a Graham in a gold case. Personally, I would rather have a Graham cylinder in a silver case rather than a Hare in gold case for 3800 Euros. Sorry for the confusion.
That auction house DOES have some rare items at a premium that you will not see elsewhere. However, there is a bulk of lesser items that are above the market price. That being said, there is a reseller out of Cyprus that buys almost exclusively from this auction house and attempts to make 2 to 3X times their prices. As a consequence, he's holding a lot of inventory.


To get back onto the topic:
I do hope pocket2100 shares some more photos of his nice collection of watches

 

[Incroyable]

I should have been more specific. I was not referring to a Graham in a gold case. Personally, I would rather have a Graham cylinder in a silver case rather than a Hare in gold case for 3800 Euros. Sorry for the confusion.
That auction house DOES have some rare items at a premium that you will not see elsewhere. However, there is a bulk of lesser items that are above the market price. That being said, there is a reseller out of Cyprus that buys almost exclusively from this auction house and attempts to make 2 to 3X times their prices. As a consequence, he's holding a lot of inventory.


To get back onto the topic:
I do hope pocket2100 shares some more photos of his nice collection of watches

Oh yes I've corresponded with that Cypriot seller; he also has a number of original Breguet pocket watches and Lange/Vacheron torpedo boat watches.

The two main German watch auction houses do have some nice things; it's curious that these rare antique watches almost never appear for sale in their countries of origin. There's another German dealer who also has a few extremely rare English chronometers.

From what I understand there were a few major German collectors who've all passed away that focused on precision watches: Gerd Ahrens, Hans Staeger, Hans Karmann of the Karmann coachbuilder family, Hermann Sacher who was a major Jurgensen collector.

 

[aucaj]

Oh yes I've corresponded with that Cypriot seller; he also has a number of original Breguet pocket watches and Lange/Vacheron torpedo boat watches.

The two main German watch auction houses do have some nice things; it's curious that these rare antique watches almost never appear for sale in their countries of origin.

Regarding rarer items, a lot of sales happen privately between collectors.

 

[Incroyable]

A lot of sales happen privately between collectors that know each other for the rarer items.

Curiously there aren't that many dealers left in London either.

I suppose it's not that curious though considering the stagnant prices for antiquarian watches, aging collector base, and high rent.

 

[aucaj]

Pocket2100:

I looked through your earlier posts and did not see one on the Agate & Gold case shown in the top left corner. I would be very interested in see a thread sharing more photos of that one. Agate cases are fairly rare.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[pocket2100]

Pocket2100:

I looked through your earlier posts and did not see one on the Agate & Gold case shown in the top left corner. I would be very interested in see a thread sharing more photos of that one. Agate cases are fairly rare.

Thanks,
Chris

You are correct, I have not shared that one yet as I just recently received it. I'll get some pictures made and post about it later today.

If there's any others in the picture that someone is especially interested in seeing pictures of, please let me know and I'll try to get some pictures of them posted.

 

[pocket2100]

Here's the post of the gold and agate watch:

c1750 Isaac Roberts verge with Gold Agate case

Posting pictures from one of the watches in my collection that I shared here: European collection This is the gold/agate cased watch by Isaac Roberts from the mid 18th century. I just recently received this watch in my collection, but was really drawn to the gold agate case. Thought it was a...

mb.nawcc.org

Thanks,
Adam

 

[pocket2100]

Regarding rarer items, a lot of sales happen privately between collectors.

This is a very valid point. As I'm still very new to the trade, I do not have many contacts, so I'm limited to the ones I can find through auctions and shops unfortunately.

 

[Incroyable]

This is a very valid point. As I'm still very new to the trade, I do not have many contacts, so I'm limited to the ones I can find through auctions and shops unfortunately.

Yes it's curious that dealers don't seem to get access to some of these rare watches either since they don't show up for sale at all at the various London dealers.

I assume this was less common in the past since I've noticed rare antique watches that come up at auction sometimes include old dealer invoices