Euramca runs fast - sort of a conundrum

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Elliott Wolin, Nov 23, 2019.

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  1. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

    Nov 18, 2019
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    I have a Euramca 2 Jewel clock in good shape, perhaps original never been worked on. It runs fine, but it runs fast (total beginner here...forgive my perhaps incorrect use of terminology).

    So I adjusted the pendulum in the "Slower" direction, but the clock stopped because the arms of the pendulum started interfering with the pendulum lift lever below it. I thought perhaps the suspension spring was too long, but there's hardly any room between the top of the pendulum and the flange it locks to when you turn the lift lever. And the lift lever doesn't seem to be bent upwards, at most maybe a tiny bit.

    Potential reasons based on my just having read Rabushka's book include 1) someone installed the wrong suspension spring, 2) the posts are somehow too short, 3) fork in the wrong place, 4) wrong weights, 5) wrong pendulum, 6) pendulum lift lever bent or wrong one, 7) other wrong parts.

    I'm sure there are other possibilities. Any suggestions on what to look at first?

    20191123_143236[1].jpg View attachment 558347 View attachment 558348

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  2. Bod

    Bod Registered User

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    I'd be inclined to look at lift lever first. Can this be improved?

    Bod
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    My first look would be at the thickness of the suspension spring. Shortening the spring helps but it's a second order effect. First thing is to get the correct suspension spring, or thin the spring you have. First, put the adjustment in center of the range, then get an accurate reading of (probably) 8 beats in 60 seconds. For every 4 seconds you are faster for 8 beats represents about 0.0001" in spring thickness.

    Kurt
     
  4. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Shortening the spring would only be to get more clearance between the lift lever and the bottom of the pendulum, but as I noted there's hardly any room as it is.

    I'll check to see if the lift lever can be lowered at all, maybe it's slightly bent upwards, or perhaps something else is raising the lever too high.

    And I'll check the spring thickness as suggested by Kurt.
     
  5. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    I have a similar clock and suspect your problem is that your clock is a 7.5 bpm/450bph clock and your timing the beat and setting it at 8bpm, its sure gonna be fast if so. Also had to bend the lift lever down on mine as it was already bent "up".

    Really like mine, my thread:
    Eurmaca Trading by Edgar Henn build quality
     
  6. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Wayne makes a good point. I had marked up my guide to show that with pendulum 61 (angular balls like the original poster) is 7.5 beats per minute (or 8 beats in 64 seconds). But with pendulum 59, shaped like upside down cupcakes for lack of a better description, it is 8 beats per minute.

    Kurt
     
  7. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    With the pendulum set to as slow as possible, just before it touches the lift lever, I get a 7.8 secs / beat (right in the middle of 7.5 and 8 secs).

    The pendulum touches the lift lever close to the center of the clock, near where the lever screws into the center post. Thus bending it can't help, it's too close to the threads on the inner end. It's possible the center post can be thinned a bit to lower the lift lever, or possibly the pendulum arms can be filed away where it comes close (one arm is worse than the other three).
     
  8. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I guess I'm having trouble understanding the problem. But I notice that your lift lever...I think we're talking about the horizontal round rod that extends out from the center cup...is outside the two posts at the edge of the base. On my clock that is similar, the lift lever is between the two posts. I suspect your guide cup is in the permanent lifted position. I never really looked at my clock to see how things worked. When I got it, it ran straight away so I just sit back and enjoy it!

    Kurt
     
  9. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    The lift lever indeed is outside the two posts. This is because on my clock one of the posts actually is spring-loaded. When locking the pendulum you push the lever up against this post, push the post down, move the lever beyond it a bit, then release it. The lift lever can not move now so the pendulum is safely locked. It cannot be released until you push the post down again and move the lever to the other side, between the two posts. So the cup is not permanently in the up position, the cup moves, and the pendulum locks and unlocks just fine.

    Briefly, the clock runs well but fast. As I adjust the pendulum a bit over halfway in the "Slower" direction parts of the pendulum begin to rub against the lift lever and stop the clock. The lever cannot be bent down to avoid this, the pendulum arms hit it close to the cup. The cup does not appear to be too high due to a faulty repair. The suspension spring appears to be the correct length, any shorter and the top of the pendulum would hit the locking saddle. Actually there's a few mm clearance, I suppose I could shorten the suspension spring one mm, but it looks like I need more than one mm.

    Current plan is to remove the cup and see if slowing the pendulum makes the clock run properly. If not then the problem is likely an incorrect suspension spring.
     
  10. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    The locking lever on my clock doesn't seem to work...not sure what's wrong with it, so I'm not much help. I recall that the regulating nut on this clock works in reverse to a majority of other clocks. When looking down on the regulating nut, to slow it down it needs to be turned counter clockwise.

    Kurt
     
  11. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Is the locking saddle raised fully up in its adjustable range? The lift and lock system is not well thought out and to get mine to lift properly and the end of lift to land just across the locking spring pin required rotating the cup lift assembly in the base so that fully down has the arm somewhere in the middle see pics. Not allot of clearance top or bottom to play with on this one. As you can see on the pendulum, its nearly full slow but was able to get it regulated without going smaller on torsion spring. Yours may be different due to the different housing.

    Kinda funny but I had this clock in the living room where a light shined on it. Just could not take the disco light flash from these lamp style pendulum's! I really liked the look and spin of its pendulum but had to relocated it out the spotlight.

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  12. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    In fact my lift assembly needs some adjustment, but even with the cup all the way down there's interference with the bottom of the pendulum arms. There's plenty of room if I set the pendulum as fast as possible, the arms move up out of the way of the lift lever. It's just when I try to slow it down I get interference. And it does lift up enough to lock the pendulum, unlocked it's about in the middle of the range if I recall, same as yours.

    BTW your clock base is polished so nicely I thought there were two lift levers, which seemed quite odd, but then I realized the lower one was just a reflection.
     
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  13. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I'm not a big fan of taking metal away on these clocks... I notice that the bracket that is screwed into the lower bottom of the clock, the one to trap the pendulum against, is slid as high as it would go. I see that the holes in the bracket are somewhat oblong, allowing for some adjustment. I suppose you could take that bracket and further elongate those holes allowing you to raise the bracket maybe by 1-2mm. Then you could shorten the suspension spring by an amount slightly less than that. That would raise the pendulum enough to clear the lift lever. However it would result in the clock running faster, maybe to a point that it couldn't be regulated. But thinning the spring could help that.

    Just a thought.

    Kurt
     
  14. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    If the mounting frame is pretty square to the base, I think I'd just thin the spring until it runs within the area where the arms don't contact each other and call it a day.
     
  15. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Just measured the beat period with the pendulum set as fast as possible. I got 7 1/2 secs per beat (8 per min) and the clock gains many hours in a day. One question is whether there's enough range in the pendulum adjustment to slow it down to (?) 8 secs per beat or maybe slower. This is assuming I can manage to eliminate interference with the lock lever. I'm wondering if a pair of strategically placed brass washers might lift the movement enough to get enough range in the pendulum adjustment. But of course it has to look nice. ;)

    How much range in beat period can one typically get via adjusting the pendulum?
     
  16. Bod

    Bod Registered User

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    Elliott, I suggest you have a look at some of the other threads mentioned in this topic. There is a real chance, that your clock has 7.5 beats per min, not 8.
    First though, can you remove the bottom locking cup completely, this will allow the full range of adjustment of the pendulum. Set the pendulum adjustment to the middle of the range, and let the clock run. After 24 hrs, adjust the pendulum to faster or slower as required. Repeat as necessary, till either the clock runs to good time or adjustment runs out.


    Bod
     
  17. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Why not remove the guard for locking the pendulum; it is really only there for shippig/moving anyhow. This would allow you to move your suspension spring up the tiny bit needed to clear the cup. The tiny bit would have the most minute effect on the speed, which could easily be compensated for by the speed adjustment knob, which also might get you into the range you want.
     
  18. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Removed the pendulum support cup and set the pendulum to max slow, we'll see what happens.

    Noticed two things now that I'm looking more carefully:

    1) One pendulum arm is missing a guide screw (goes in a slot near the bottom of the pendulum arm), so it doesn't sit properly when set to fully slow. This explains why one arm was worse than the others, and possibly could solve the problem if it now runs too slow. Not sure where to get another tiny, sort of long screw, may use some wire temporarily to guide the arm.

    2) There's a slight twist in the suspension spring between the fork and top block. I might have caused this myself when disassembling it (I'm still learning!). I mostly removed it by gently twisting in the opposite direction so that the fork is centered when the pendulum is quiescent, but I still see some deformity when the spring is on the bench (don't see this with the pendulum hanging). Is this enough to mandate a new suspension spring?
     
  19. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    That part of the suspension spring is the most critical. Successive twisting of the spring will eventually break it. If the clock runs OK and you can get it beat with good movement, you might be allright. As for the missing screw, The Horolovar Store might have them for sale.

    Kurt
     
  20. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Suspension springs are fragile things for sure, slight bends probably ok, anything that leaves a sharp bend or twist I'd change.
    Missing lower pendulum screw makes some sense why your hitting bottom. Wire or brass taper pin probably would get it going and gravity should take out the slop so just about anything in there should work.
     
  21. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Beat period with pendulum at full slow is 8 secs/beat. Maybe there's some hope if it now runs slow and I can figure out why there's interference between the pendulum and lift cup lever. The lever screws in, so one possibility is to leave it off unless I'm moving the clock.

    Alas I may have damaged the spring when removing the lift cup, I now know to be super-careful with these clocks, they are really delicate!
     
  22. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Unfortunately in my clumsiness I appear to have put a kink in the suspension spring between the fork and top block, and now it only runs for an hour or so (it used to run for days, albeit fast). And the fork is no longer centered...I twisted the spring a bit to center the fork and tried adjusting the top block angle, to no avail, maybe I'm making things worse. And maybe I'll look back with fondness to my days as a tyro.

    Oh well, time for a new suspension spring. I'll get the correct size and one size thinner (by 0.0001", thinner is slower, correct?), in case the pendulum can't run slow enough with the normal spring.

    Anyone know what the correct thickness is? I intend to get the Horolovar book but haven't yet...
     
  23. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    I believe yours is plate 1088 in the book. Suspension spring is listed at .0023" and that's what I put on my 1088 and just about full slow brought it into regulation. If its still to fast you could sand it down a bit or just try a .0022".
     
  24. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Another curious thing.

    With the pendulum and spring removed I was unable to get the escapement to flutter at all. I.e. I held the anchor pin in the exact center and no flutter. This seems to indicate the pallets are too deep, or there's too much lock. The lock and drop seem the same on both sides, and it ran fine (but fast) prior to my messing things up.

    Any thoughts on whether I should do anything about this?
     
  25. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Flutter is a feedback loop between the suspension spring/fork/pin and the anchor, under the right conditions you can get a brief oscillation. That said without the suspension spring there's no feedback loop possible. Probably nothing wrong with the lock's because it was running.
     
  26. Elliott Wolin

    Elliott Wolin Registered User

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    Ah, I see, I thought it was due to the anchor pin lingering too long near the center. I understand you to say it's due to the anchor pin being near the center but quickly oscillating back-and-forth causing rapid locking/unlocking on both sides. I understand too low a fork will cause fluttering, but the mechanism wasn't what I originally thought.

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  27. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    If you want to keep fiddling while waiting for the new springs, you can turn the suspension spring around so that the kink is at the bottom portion, where it is less critical and it might work. Of course, you will need to move the blocks and fork into the correct postions in the new arrangement.
     

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