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Ethics, and preparing clocks for sale at a charity thrift store

Elliott Wolin

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I recently began volunteering at a charity thrift store, the ReStore, preparing clocks for sale. The ReStore is an arm of Habitat for Humanity, which builds homes for low-income families, helps restore neighborhoods, etc. The ReStore sells donated items of all kinds (e.g. furniture, construction materials, tools, appliances, household items, etc, but not clothing) with all the profits going towards charitable works. My local store has about 20 employees and 70 volunteers.

Prices are generally low, with many bargains to be had. Over the years I've purchased a handful of clocks, most needing a lot of work but at great prices. My favorite is a hundred-year-old Ithaca Calendar Clock Company longcase clock, which took a long time to refurbish but now graces my dining room (most important, my wife loves it!) (see https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/some-of-the-coolest-clocks-ive-gotten.189583/page-2#post-1551542).

My question concerns how much work to put into clock preparation. Note that I do NOT use the word "repair," as that is not what generally is done. They can only get so much money for old clocks, and it is not cost-effective to put too much time, effort, and money into preparing clocks for sale. Note the previous clock repairer never took apart clock plates, he only worked on parts outside the inner workings of movements. Thus clocks were never properly bushed, cleaned, pegged, etc.

Clocks are typically labeled as "working," "needs repair," or "project clock,' where "project clock" usually means that the clock isn't working and is missing parts. The prices for the latter two categories are very low, it varies for the "working" category (I don't set prices).

I've just started, but so far I've prepared a number of clocks for sale, and I too haven't taken any movements apart. I've blown out dirt and oiled the movements (often only one side of cuckoo clocks due to the time needed to remove/replace the movement). And I have gritted my teeth when I saw dirty or worn pivot holes. I typically get the clocks working, but it pains me to know that some won't work that long due to the need to be taken apart and properly cleaned.

Everything at the ReStore is sold "as is," so purchasers of clocks should not expect to get a professionally repaired and refurbished clock. But my half-efforts still bother me.

Thoughts...?
 

wisty

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I would say that the answer depends on your motivation for doing the work.
If you're really doing the work in order to maximise the funds for the charity, then it would probably pay to discuss with whoever sets the prices, the way in which your skills would maximise the take. It becomes a business decision to maximise income. That will to some extent depend on the the likely customers who buy at the ReStore, the volume of clocks that come through and need attention, and the amount of time (what is your time worth?) you are willing to put in. Who is buying the clocks? Are people buying the clocks because they want a clock for their home to tell the time, or are they buying for other reasons (to resell possibly on on E-bay, to take apart and fix themselves, for spares etc.) I suspect it's rarely the first reason and mainly the latter ones, in which case I am firmly in the caveat emptor ethics class. Do as little work as possible to maximise the revenue and get your payback and pleasure from the money the clocks are making.
If on the other hand you are volunteering because it gives you the opportunity to exercise your skills and learn new ones doing something (repairing and refurbishing clocks) that gives you great pleasure and which as a side benefit helps the charity, then the discussion is different - do the kind of job that maximises your pleasure. It may not drive the revenue as high, but it will stop you gritting your teeth and being in pain.
Oh and keep an eye out for the one in a thousand that is really worth the effort - you are in prime position to cherry pick!
 

steamer471

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I buy from the local Habitat store here and have found it to be a great place to pick up bargains. Without properly servicing a movement I would only clean the cases and maybe carefully blow them out. Oiling without servicing will give the false impression a clock is runnable and someone may continue to run it potentially causing more damage. None of the clocks here are labeled as working or not and I have seen clocks labeled. One obvious wood works clock listed as an early 1900"s or the typical Ridgeway listed as an antique. In my opinion if the clock runs when you get it I would list as running otherwise leave it be and maybe list the usual "service history unknown" or "service recommended" since they do sell on an as is basis. With your experience your help would be invaluable in spotting the potential collectible pieces and setting the prices accordingly.
 
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Elliott Wolin

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I find the label "working" to be of great value. It tells me it's likely that nothing is broken and that all the parts are there. I'll have to think about whether oiling the clock is a good idea or not...it helps determine if the clock is "working" but may lead to problems, as steamer471 notes.

To a knowledgeable purchaser, "working" indicates that the clock may just need cleaning and oiling, and possibly some bushings and pivot polishing.

To a naive purchaser, it should at least indicate a clock repair shop could get it working reasonably well, and that a purchase would not be a complete waste (note that sometimes clocks are purchased just as decorations).

Also, "working" clocks bring in more money. This week I plan to talk with the person who prices the clocks to learn more about pricing and profits.
 

Cheezhead

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With cursory repairs to clocks, you may have done what I could do for myself to increase the price of a clock to where I will not buy it. Consider your customer base. If a customer wants a good clock ready to go, they will not be shopping at Habitat for Humanity or Goodwill.

If you have the time to improve value, it might be helpful to some customers but my expectations of Goodwill etc. are a cheap bargain.

Thank you for your help. Without your volunteer work and without the likes of me buying, there would be no Goodwill etc. stores. By the way, the H for H store here has not had clocks. Apparently the clocks go to Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul.
 
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Elliott Wolin

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With cursory repairs to clocks, you may have done what I could do for myself to increase the price of a clock to where I will not buy it.
Well put, I expect the clocks I prepare will be priced beyond what I'd pay for them. But the idea is to make money for a charity.

Interesting question: What if I want to purchase a clock that comes to me for preparation? Might I decline working on it so they have to price it low? Seems like I shouldn't...
 
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digitalblsphemy

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A couple of questions:
Are you bringing these home to work on or working on location?
Although you most likely don't price out clocks, I'm sure your opinion is solicited.
I'm a frequent visitor , supporter of Restore myself. I've found some real treasures and also some junkers clocks.
I've done some work here and there for them. Their frequent management changes will test your resolve as well

They have no idea how to price clocks that come in, for sale. I personally think a quick overview, clean, maybe oil. Mark the ticket tested, needs some work, Etc. It's not going to sell on the work bench in the back room. Besides while you working on one on the bench, five more will come in. Pretty soon you'll have a mountain of clocks, no place to put them, and misplaced parts all over. I speak from experience...
I've also seen tickets (ads) placed in clocks for local clock shops, repairers etc.Usually with a price to go on the clock
Just my 2 cents
Thank you for the work you are doing.

PS: Something comes across the desk you fancy for yourself let them price it and sell it you. I would have no issue with that. After all your not getting paid!
 

Elliott Wolin

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I've just started and I typically work on clocks at the facility. Once I brought a movement home where there's better light and I have more tools, but now I'm bringing tools in with me and working to improve the lighting where I work at the facility.

I don't know who prices the clocks yet, perhaps more than one person. Some clocks seem overpriced to me, but they seem to sell. Perhaps if they don't sell they offer a big discount to the first interested person (they did this for me a while ago on a longcase clock that needed a lot of work and was unsold for months).
 

digitalblsphemy

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Elliott W case in point. I stopped into the local HFH Restore today and came across this "Linden" mantle clock today.
Triple chime, 1051-020 I believe. You can see in the photo marked @ $100
This why I mentioned they have no idea how to price things

20220823_135412.jpg 20220823_135415.jpg 20220823_135432.jpg
 

Cheezhead

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Interesting question: What if I want to purchase a clock that comes to me for preparation? Might I decline working on it so they have to price it low? Seems like I shouldn't...
As a Goodwill customer I could do something simiilar. If I find a bargain clock that needs only a small tweak to make it worth more, should I point that out to Goodwill, suggest that they raise the price and then pay more? I have a small bit of larceny in my heart and won't do what I suggested but will remain a loyal customer at Goodwill. You are a volunteer while others with possibly different and higher-minded views are not. Buy the bargain. You are creating demand for Restart goods.
 
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Cheezhead

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Elliott W case in point. I stopped into the local HFH Restore today and came across this "Linden" mantle clock today.
Triple chime, 1051-020 I believe. You can see in the photo marked @ $100
This why I mentioned they have no idea how to price things

View attachment 722842 View attachment 722843 View attachment 722844
What are you inferring? is the clock priced too high or too low? This clock new would cost at least a few hundred; maybe more. If it is in perfect condition it is a bargain at $100. Can you clarify?
 

Jim DuBois

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What are you inferring? is the clock priced too high or too low? This clock new would cost at least a few hundred; maybe more. If it is in perfect condition it is a bargain at $100. Can you clarify?
The clock, even if running perfectly, has little value today. $100 is not a reasonable asking price, and if some poor snook pays that for it, they have wasted a bunch of money. It is modern, it is most likely the movent is worn to the point of requiring an overhaul or replacement. And either of those choices, if properly done, will run a few hundred dollars themselves. And Uncle Fix-it with a 5-gallon bucket of kerosene and a can of WD-40 is not the answer either. And yes, you can still buy clocks like this new for a bundle of money, but that doesn't improve the value of this one in the slightest. What was low quality 20-30-40 years ago does not improve with age.
 

Cheezhead

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The clock, even if running perfectly, has little value today. What was low quality 20-30-40 years ago does not improve with age.
If you don't want the clock then even a very low price might not do. If you like the clock, if is in good condition and you want to own it, then a higher price would be ok. I had three with the Hermle xxx-020 movements; all bought for little money and with no apparent wear in the movements. All ran for well over 8 days with one winding each after cleaning and oiling. I gave one with 5 chime rods to a niece. The 340-020 movement has five chime rods while my 1050-020 has eight as should the 1051-020 that was mentioned. It would require serious effort with modern metalurgy, machining methods and lubricants to make a lower quality clock movement than one made 100 years ago. Quality will or will not include features; depends on who is talking.
 

Kevin W.

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I agree, 100 bucks for that clock is way high in todays market, likely needs a overhaul, i cant make any money selling clocks that have been overhauled. I would let them know the reality and lower the price, way down.
 
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Jim DuBois

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Reasonably priced new clocks were sold by tens of thousands to first the greatest generation and then followed by baby boomers who followed right along. Most of these clocks were pretty modest from a collectible and quality standpoint, later in the period, clocks were made of composition/particle board/plastics in part. This market of cheap clocks started in the mid to late '50s and continued into the '00s.

Today, we see many of these used clocks being dumped at various donation sites, offered in church bazaars, and widely offered on local sites such as Craigslist, etc. Auctions will not accept many of these clocks. We don't see many on eBay as there is a very limited market for these, truth be known. They are often available for free or $25 or $50 from these other sites This includes hall clocks and the ever-so-popular china cabinet tall clocks. It is never comfortable to rain on the parade of the new or potential new owner when they obtain one of these items. It is difficult to tell the new mother their baby is ugly. And it is even less acceptable to mislead people as to values or collectability or desirability. We can tell folks where the landmines are, but if they choose to walk on in, so be it?
 

Elliott Wolin

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I talked with the person who prices the clocks. He just prices them according to what he thinks they might bring, he doesn't have any depth of knowledge about clocks. He figures if he overprices a clock it will hang around for a while and the folks on the floor will drop the price when someone starts asking (a while ago I got a longcase clock at a much lower price this way). My impression is that he does his best, he typically recognizes the difference between valuable and cheap clocks, but wouldn't recognize a rare or especially valuable clock right off. I believe he checks eBay selling prices when he's not sure, so he likely usually isn't too far off.

Note that the clocks we put out usually sell fairly quickly, as long as they are not grandfather clocks!
 

digitalblsphemy

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Just to clarify my position, the clock I posted is not worth that asking price. Of course that's my opinion
I've been noticing their pricing the last 2-3 years much higher than years gone by. Notwithstanding the great work they do with the funds, they tend to price high and the clocks sit there too long.
 

sbfren

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He figures if he overprices a clock it will hang around for a while and the folks on the floor will drop the price...
As a ReStore enthusiast and, actually, an ethicist, I really appreciate your question! At least where we are, most ReStore shoppers will not be able to buy a pricey item. I actually found this group because I got what is looking to be an functioning HAC wall clock there. I'd seen it at it's original price of $75 and let it go, but at our ReStore, prices generally drop by 25% ~weekly. When it dropped 50%, I couldn't pass it up -- but I know nothing about clocks and didn't buy it for value; I just really liked it. And that's a lot for me to spend at ReStore. As for whether it's ethically appropriate to not work on a clock you want, if your ReStore is like mine and there are very few shoppers who know what they're looking at when it comes to clocks or other antiques, I'm with digitalblsphemy - let them price it and buy! If you're in a place where lots of very wealthy people go treasure hunting, though, and might give HFH a lot, you might think twice...
 

poul

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Robert Gift

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...I've just started, but so far I've prepared a number of clocks for sale, and I too haven't taken any movements apart. I've blown out dirt and oiled the movements (often only one side of cuckoo clocks due to the time needed to remove/replace the movement). And I have gritted my teeth when I saw dirty or worn pivot holes. I typically get the clocks working, but it pains me to know that some won't work that long due to the need to be taken apart and properly cleaned.
Everything at the ReStore is sold "as is," so purchasers of clocks should not expect to get a professionally repaired and refurbished clock. But my half-efforts still bother me.
Thoughts...?
Good of you to do what you can! Thank you.

Yesterday, 1-20-2023, saw this Howard Miller grandfather for $900 at Denver, Colorado ReStore. MODEL# 610-989 111 SER # MF0020480409
Has [NIGHT OFF | NIGHT ON] but only Westminster Chime. Also a light. Appears excellent condition.
If it had three chimes, wife and I would like to buy it if it eventually reduced 10% each week to what we could afford - $500. But it will probably be sold before that.
(As a carillonneur who plays clock chimes fromemory, I greatlyvish that it were triple chime.)
1674308675373.png
1674308737034.png

Had to leave on a bloodelivery before I could get other photos. (Could not get closer to the back.). (Both pictures were accidentally VIDEOS.)
 
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Jim DuBois

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Sadly, modern 8-day hall clocks, by Howard Miller and a raft of other makers, from very high quality to lesser examples, can often be had for $50 or less. Several hundred dollars is optimistic in today's market. Often these clocks may have sold for several thousand dollars when new. I have told the story before, but I was recently offered 7 of them for free, and I didn't take them.
 
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Robert Gift

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Sadly, modern 8-day hall clocks, by Howard Miller and a raft of other makers, from very high quality to lesser examples, can often be had for $50 or less. Several hundred dollars is optimistic in today's market. Often these clocks may have sold for several thousand dollars when new. I have told the story before, but I was recently offered 7 of them for free, and I didn't take them.
Ifree, would take them and perform what care for them that I could - cleaning dust and oiling with 0W-20 full synthetic motor oil.
Keep what we would really appreciate and be thankful for, andonate the others to charity thrift storesuch as ARC, Goodwill and ReStore.
 

TQ60

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We have provided assorted support to many a thrift store.

Usually it is because we stop often just to hunt and over time get known by the operators.

They get something the need help with and ask.

Here is how we handle these things.

COMMUNICATION!

Make a note if needed of the item, if it is a clock that needs service, and has whatever value, simply note that on paper and put it inside and discuss with the operator.

Many start price high and let it come down.

Somewhere the right buyer sees it.

By describing what the clock is and other information the operator can better price it and the buyer has better idea, everyone happy.
 

stademock

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I've been noticing their pricing the last 2-3 years much higher than years gone by. Notwithstanding the great work they do with the funds, they tend to price high and the clocks sit there too long.
 
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Robert Gift

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A locahospital gives away AA batteries whichave been used in a medical instrument one time. Then must be replaced.
I place the batteries in thrift store quartz clocks to gethem running and then sethe clocks.
When running they sell better. Occasionally find a clock which does not run matter what I do and pen Not Running on its price tag.
 

Robert Gift

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... "Linden" mantle clock today.
Triple chime, 1051-020 I believe. You can see in the photo marked @ $100
This why I mentioned they have no idea how to price things
View attachment 722842 View attachment 722843 View attachment 722844

Is $100 too much or too little?
(Too much for me so I would try to visit on later dates and hopefully find it reduced.)

Mosthrift stores I can visit only after a delivery to a hospital nearby.
8:50 p.m. returning from a distant hospital, I was too tired to visit a Goodwill one block off the road I was traveling.
Stopped in, anyway.
Athe back of the store, a Howard Miller triple-chime grandfather clock for $599.
Would be le$$ that weekend, buthe woman volunteer said it would be sold before then.

Bought it and took the pendulum and weights home on top of empty blood boxes filling themergencyehicle.
Returned for the clock when I could thext day.
(Wish thathe clock had the chime Night Offeature. It can cycle through the chime tunes automatically.)
 
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Elliott Wolin

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I've been noticing their pricing the last 2-3 years much higher than years gone by. Notwithstanding the great work they do with the funds, they tend to price high and the clocks sit there too long.
Same at my local ReStore. Sometimes they sell at the higher prices, but many sit for a long time.

A longcase clock that needed a lot of work on the case sat on the floor for many months at a pretty high price (by my cheapskate standards). I finally asked one of the floor workers what he'd let me have it for. He dropped the price considerably, and since it was "20% off Tuesday" as well, I got it for about half the listed price.

So it pays to ask!
 

Schatznut

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Good of you to do what you can! Thank you.

Yesterday, 1-20-2023, saw this Howard Miller grandfather for $900 at Denver, Colorado ReStore. MODEL# 610-989 111 SER # MF0020480409
Has [NIGHT OFF | NIGHT ON] but only Westminster Chime. Also a light. Appears excellent condition.
If it had three chimes, wife and I would like to buy it if it eventually reduced 10% each week to what we could afford - $500. But it will probably be sold before that.
(As a carillonneur who plays clock chimes fromemory, I greatlyvish that it were triple chime.)
View attachment 746274 View attachment 746275
Had to leave on a bloodelivery before I could get other photos. (Could not get closer to the back.). (Both pictures were accidentally VIDEOS.)
I got exceptionally fortunate and found a clock very similar to this one at a local Goodwill for $99. With triple chimes, it was in superb condition, but it had been moved with the pendulum still attached to the leader, so it was pretty messed up. I was able to salvage all the parts so my total cost to overhaul was about $12 in lumber from which to build a movement stand. They seemed happy to get it off their hands and I'm happy to have it. So yes, there are wide variations in price for similar items.

Tall case clock.JPG
 

Robert Gift

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Great idea! I volunteer at a local hospital and I'll check this out. I typically don't put batteries in quartz clocks at the ReStore unless I think it will help them bring in a higher price.
The volunteer desk people do not knowhat medical instrumenthe AA batteries are replaced. They often have a couple of dozen!
 

Robert Gift

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I got exceptionally fortunate and found a clock very similar to this one at a local Goodwill for $99.
Wow! Wish I could find a clock like that and that inexpen$ive.
Years ago? Where?
Today it seems that everyone is pricing their clocks higher. I cannot buy.
When I see a clock gone, I wonder if someone bought it or if discarded.
 

Schatznut

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Wow! Wish I could find a clock like that and that inexpen$ive.
Years ago? Where?
Today it seems that everyone is pricing their clocks higher. I cannot buy.
When I see a clock gone, I wonder if someone bought it or if discarded.
Late last year in beautiful downtown Santee, California...
 

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