Ethical Question

[Ethan Lipsig]

I noticed two new eBay listings this morning for a watch I sold about a year ago for $3,050. The two listings are posted by different sellers, one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast (the purchaser of my watch was on the West Coast). Both listings use the photos in my year-old listing (without my authorization) and plagiarize my year-old listing description. One or both of these listings almost certainly is fraudulent. Do I (as a former owner or mere observer) have an ethical obligation to do something to counter this fraud even though any serious prospective buyer should come across both listings on his or her own? If I should do something, what should I do? The use of my photos and description wouldn't, by itself, bother me although I know I could raise a stink over it.

 

[Dr. Jon]

At a minimum I suggest you report the fraudulent listing to eBay.

If the person selling used your listing description and photos you probably have a claim against any profit, but as a lawyer I am sure you know the law and the details and problems of getting anything from this.

 

[musicguy]

I would notify ebay on both of them and let them sort it out.



Rob

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

I've reported both listings to eBay.

 

[JTD]

I've reported both listings to eBay.

It will be interesting to know what sort of response you get.

JTD

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

eBay hasn't responded to me, but both listings have been taken down.

 

[JTD]

eBay hasn't responded to me, but both listings have been taken down.

Well, I guess that's a result. Well done.

JTD

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

This has proven to be a strange affair. Since the two original fraudulent listings were taken down, new fraudulent listing were posted on eBay at least three times by three different sellers, in each case using my photos and in each case being taken down within a day before any sale.

 

[John Matthews]

Ethan

This seems very odd. I particularly find it difficult to understand how/why/motivation of three/five different sellers. This would mean that the watch and your original listing are the only aspect in common across the postings. I have no knowledge of selling on ebay and what is required to verify identity and address. I think the incidents would be more understandable if the listings were by a single person or close associates, although the motivation would still be a mystery, and possibly worrying. Difficult to believe that they are unrelated individuals, who have no connection with you.

John

 

[nutmegtinker]

Sounds like someone is trying to use the item as bait for a scam, as in getting money for something they do not have. Just for the sake of curiosity and to add a little flavor to your story, could you provide a link to your original listing?

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Nutmegtinker, you asked "Just for the sake of curiosity and to add a little flavor to your story, could you provide a link to your original listing?" I can't because my listing is too old, and no longer available on eBay. The fraudulent listings also aren't available, but the listing was for this 18k Sir John Bennett, a very pretty watch in excellent condition that I sold because the English-looking movement was made in whole or in part in Switzerland. The case has 1896/97 London hallmark and an "AB" sponsor mark, for Arthur Baume of Baume & Co. The watch sold for $3,050 last fall. If that seems high, the net scrap value of the 70 gram case was close to $3,000.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Ethan,

The case has 1896/97 London hallmark and an "AB" sponsor mark, for Arthur Baume of Baume & Co.

Just out of interest, do you happen to have a picture of the 'AB' mark in this case?

Regards,

Graham

 

[Dr. Jon]

One thing to keep in mind is that eBay is on the hook for a scam listing. They take these down not out of ethical concerns but becuase they have to reimburse the person who gets taken on the scam.

The net effect of this is that the person who actually baought the watch from Ethan will have to take original photos, if they can sell it all on that venue.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Graham, here is a photo that shows the "AB" stamp.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Ethan,

Thanks, I was just curious to see it because the Baume mark applicable for 1896/7 is listed in Priestley as having this cartouche shape but with a 'striped base to the shield' which isn't apparent in this example. As there are no plausible alternatives listed, perhaps they were using an old punch; they did register a good many over the years they were working.

Regards,

Graham

 

[nutmegtinker]

Nutmegtinker, you asked "Just for the sake of curiosity and to add a little flavor to your story, could you provide a link to your original listing?" I can't because my listing is too old, and no longer available on eBay. The fraudulent listings also aren't available, but the listing was for this 18k Sir John Bennett, a very pretty watch in excellent condition that I sold because the English-looking movement was made in whole or in part in Switzerland. The case has 1896/97 London hallmark and an "AB" sponsor mark, for Arthur Baume of Baume & Co. The watch sold for $3,050 last fall. If that seems high, the net scrap value of the 70 gram case was close to $3,000.

View attachment 640942 View attachment 640943 View attachment 640941 View attachment 640940

I am new to this watch collecting and appreciate you sharing this obviously fine time piece. The scrap value perspective is certainly jaw dropping.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

This has proven to be a strange affair. Since the two original fraudulent listings were taken down, new fraudulent listing were posted on eBay at least three times by three different sellers, in each case using my photos and in each case being taken down within a day before any sale.

Since I reported the posting of those fraudulent listings, other fraudulent listings for my watch using my photos have popped up and been taken down. This morning, there were three such listings from three different sellers in different locations. I presume they will be delisted shortly. Very odd!

 

[svenedin]

Nutmegtinker, you asked "Just for the sake of curiosity and to add a little flavor to your story, could you provide a link to your original listing?" I can't because my listing is too old, and no longer available on eBay. The fraudulent listings also aren't available, but the listing was for this 18k Sir John Bennett, a very pretty watch in excellent condition that I sold because the English-looking movement was made in whole or in part in Switzerland. The case has 1896/97 London hallmark and an "AB" sponsor mark, for Arthur Baume of Baume & Co. The watch sold for $3,050 last fall. If that seems high, the net scrap value of the 70 gram case was close to $3,000.

View attachment 640942 View attachment 640943 View attachment 640941 View attachment 640940

I find that very sad that such a beautiful watch sold for $50 over scrap. That’s madness. Why does this not happen with silver or base metal cases? Such watches are clearly valued as well, watches.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

99% of pocket watches are worth a small premium over scrap value. I don't have much experience with pocket watches cased in anything but solid gold or platinum -- more than 95% of my collection is cased that way -- but it might be that the premium over scrap a watch commands is higher when the movement is sold uncased or in a case of little value.

The three listings of my ex-collection Sir John Bennett that were posted this morning have now all disappeared. Very odd!

 

[Roy Gardner]

After reading this thread, I searched for such a watch on eBay about 45 minutes ago and found an auction with Ethan Lipsig's pictures and description,. Auction # 124632823190, Cambridge, Massachusetts, starting bid $2.90. Ten minutes later, the listing had been removed.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

If I'm recalling correctly, eBay used to give the Seller an option to "Watermark" their uploaded photos with their screen name. Is that option still available? I haven't seen it in a while. I suppose that if you are posting/listing photos of something as valuable and beautiful as this watch it might be a good idea to watermark it if your photo editor has that capability.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

It has appeared again. A shady BIN listing. Will send p.m.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Thanks, Rick. I saw the listing too and put it on my "watch" list about an hour ago. Since then, it was taken down and is no where to be found.

The repeated fraudulent re-listings of this watch wouldn't puzzle me so much if they ever stayed up long enough for the watch to be sold, but the listings are taken down so soon that I wonder why any conman would find it worth his or her while to keep relisting the watch.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

That account was loaded with strange listings for expensive articles. I wonder if they just post these random listings hoping someone would quickly try to complete a transaction outside of the bay.

 

[John Matthews]

I don't sell on ebay, so I have no idea what information a seller can see when potential buyer bids. I would be interested to know what information is displayed. It may be that a fraudulent seller might be able to identify information that can be exploited.

Even if the information is just that is displayed on Bidding History, it is possible to identify some traders - e.g. if you perform a little research when a sold item appears on this forum.

John