Escapement hates me

[bangster]

Okay, I bleeve I'm in serious need of advice from those what know more than me.

Escapement problem with Haller DB 112cm 190,66 movement. Briefly: cain't get it to run. Ticks for a bit and then does one of two things: (a) pallet hangs up on a 'scape wheel tooth, or (b) stops and loafs back and forth between the same teeth, while wheel acts like it's getting no power.

Sometimes when it does (b), tapping on the spring barrel with my little hammer starts it going again for a bit.

Remove the verge entirely while it's in state (b), and it quietly sits there doing nothing until given a nudge, then whirls along like sixty, with no verge to slow it down.

Beat adjusts with a friction-fit crutch on the anchor arbor. Arbor has quite a bit of end-play, maybe a sixteenth of an inch.

Something needs adjusted, but I don't know what. Distance between pivot centers (scapewheel & verge)? Bend the anchor (strap anchor) to alter the distance between pallets? Something else altogether?

Aarrgh. Help me please. :frown:

bangster
frustrated newbie

 

[bangster]

Okay, I bleeve I'm in serious need of advice from those what know more than me.

Escapement problem with Haller DB 112cm 190,66 movement. Briefly: cain't get it to run. Ticks for a bit and then does one of two things: (a) pallet hangs up on a 'scape wheel tooth, or (b) stops and loafs back and forth between the same teeth, while wheel acts like it's getting no power.

Sometimes when it does (b), tapping on the spring barrel with my little hammer starts it going again for a bit.

Remove the verge entirely while it's in state (b), and it quietly sits there doing nothing until given a nudge, then whirls along like sixty, with no verge to slow it down.

Beat adjusts with a friction-fit crutch on the anchor arbor. Arbor has quite a bit of end-play, maybe a sixteenth of an inch.

Something needs adjusted, but I don't know what. Distance between pivot centers (scapewheel & verge)? Bend the anchor (strap anchor) to alter the distance between pallets? Something else altogether?

Aarrgh. Help me please. :frown:

bangster
frustrated newbie

 

[Joe Collins]

Bangs,
You are loosing power before the verge. Next time it stops remove the verge and carefully try rocking the scape wheel to see if power loss may be further back in the train. Also check for bent pivots and lack of end shake in all the wheels and arbors. This problem should be fairly easy to locate.

Joe

 

[tymfxr]

bangster, sounds like you aren't getting enough power through your time train. What have you done to the movement so far? Mike C.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Oh I don't know TYX. He probly touched it. He has that MIDAS touch. Everything he touches turns into a muffler. BONG, they don't need me to tell them they're correct. What I do is in the failed condition, I go from wheel to wheel pressing on the teeth to see if the wheel is loaded. No BONG. "Has power" When you find the unloaded wheel. When you find the wheel that has no power to it, you're near the problem. Are the hands locking on each other BONG? Did you wind the clock BONG? ( you gotta cover ALL the bases with BONG).

 

[tymfxr]

OK Scottie, all the bases- Bong, is it plugged in? Did you check the fuse box? Electric bill paid? Mike C.

 

[tymfxr]

Seriously Bong, ditto what Scottie said, check where you are losing power. Have you cleaned, repaired, what have you done so far? Mike C.

 

[bangster]

Yeah, that power loss thing is one of the things has me bugged.

On this particular model, it's easy to pull the mainspring barrel without disrupting the rest of the train. When I do that, the rest of the train seems to run free and smooth. No extensive testing under various conditions; just with the mainspring out, boost it with a finger push and it seems clear and easy. Hard to imagine any impediments in that part of the train.

So...what could be wrong in the mainspring unit? I haven't had it apart (didn't remove the spring from the barrel), but what INSIDE could be interrupting the power transmission?

bangster

 

[tymfxr]

Remove the cap and remove the spring. Dried up grease on it, rust, what condition is it in?
Mike C. Gotta go now- good luck with it.

 

[Joe Collins]

Could be you will be Amazed, Astonished or Aghast at what that spring looks like. Check it out!!

Joe

 

[Scottie-TX]

Take it out BONG. THE SPRING, Bong! Take it out and find there is nothing wrong with it - probably clean. Probably well lubed. If not go ahead and do that - reassemble and start looking for your problem. BONG, the reason you're not finding the problem with verge and spring removed is the train isn't locked BONG. See, under power and locked, the train has a powered nature different from idle. Especially a failing pinion trundle, a badly worn bushing, mismating teeth, etc. You must hunt the loss of power under power in a locked and failed condition. KAPISH?

 

[BIG D]

I agree will all of above.
Especially the spring thing. You stated when you rap it with a hammer it goes. That sounds as if the spring is binding and losing power. You can check this to some degree per previous posts and when it fails.... start at escapewheel and work you way down to the last wheel with no power to it.
check the arbors for end shake. Sometimes this will tell you if it has power with out "upsetting the hang up". Thus you can check several wheels until you find the one with power. My bet is the spring is your cause.

Good Luck

 

[bangster]

I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do to check it under power. But here's the saga so far.

I had it apart, cleaned it, no noticeable wear in pivot holes, no noticeable fringled teeth on wheels or leaves on pinions. Only wear was in the escape pallet (see earlier thread) which got filed and smoothed out.

Just now had the spring out of the barrel and inspected it. Great shape, no rust, no crud. No reason for it to be binding in the barrel.

All wheels in the train have end shake (I take it, that means pivots move freely back & forth in holes.)

AAARRRGGGHHH! What do I do now? Scottie sez test it under power and locked, but I don't know how to do that.

Hep me, hep me.

bangster

 

[Scottie-TX]

BONG: Did you enjoy looking at the spring? I always do. Refreshing. Why did it work when you rapped on the spring? Well that's because it wouldn't have mattered where you rapped it. When you rapped it you dislodged - dislocated - relieved whatever the problem is. You rapped on the mainspring because you wanted that to be the problem so proceeded to prove you were right. Try it. Next time it fails, rap on it anywhere! Test under power: Wind it fully with verge installed. Await failure. Failed? GREAT! Now you may have to repeat this procedure two or three times. Don't be discouraged if success doesn't come on first attempt. Suppose spring winds clockwise. Great wheel fastened to it turns counter clockwise and it turns the second wheel clockwise. You got the idea. O.K. If a wheel should move clockwise, it should have power on it in that direction. YOU push COUNTERclockwise on that wheel. When you push on it does it offer resistance? If it does, it's receiving power. If it does not have resistance there is no power to that wheel. Got the idea?

 

[RJSoftware]

I suspect endplay. Instead of tapping to get movement started try turning movement over or lightly shake movement in endplay direction.

This was one of the issues brought up about burnishing. The burnishers being designed to get in the corners (pivot and arbor) because the corners have tendency to bind/stick.

That's why some of the American movements can work until the pivots shear off because of the incredible (sloppy) amount of endplay slack.

Wiggle each gear latterally like a loose tooth with fingertip to pinpoint gear.

That's my guess...

RJ

 

[bangster]

O-KAY! Scottie gets the Bangster Supreme Genius Award for the day (& Arjay helped too).

Yep, tapping on the frame anywhere, not just on the spring barrel, jiggled things loose and made the train run (for a bit). Not a spring or spring-barrel problem after all.

Fully wound, with verge in place, started to check endplay (end shake?) in the components of the train. First component: great wheel. Seemed to have no end movement at all. But with a little more transverse pressure, felt a tiny pop! as if the arbor were clicking into place, and it now runs just fine (except not in beat yet). I think I'll take that 'un out again and do a bit of pivot polishing on it. Maybe take a closer look at the second-wheel pinion too.

Looks like what I thought was one problem was actually two: power loss, and verge hanging up on a scapewheel tooth. I believe the first of them has been conquered. Now for the second one. What to do when the exit pallet locks on the tip of a tooth? I've read Dave Goodman's chapter on the subject, but it doesn't give me the instructions my increasingly petrified brain needs.

What do people say to do when pallet locks on tooth?

bangster

 

[bchaps]

Bangster, I had a very similar problem and Doug sinclair's response in the attached thread fixed my problem. Worth checking! Bill

old ref::http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5656008461/m/1281002741

 

[Scottie-TX]

Well, did you find the problem or did you find the problem area? You mentioned a pop, a pinion, etc. but you seem still to be only in an areal hunt and haven't positively identified the SINGLE problem. You should not feel good about it running reliably until the problem is isolated and addressed. Until you do - it will stop again. Now the tooth problem will be a tad easier. You'll lift the verge away from the escape wheel ( if it is movable ) until it no longer hangs up on a tooth. If it always stops on the same tooth, you may want to inspect that tooth however, for damage before accomplishing the final drop adjustment. A drop adjustment should not compensate for a faulty tooth.

 

[bangster]

Yeah, yeah, boy are you ever pushy!
I'm gonna start by polishing the greatwheel pivots, and maybe pivotholes,and looking most carefully under magnification at the greatwheel itsownself AND the second wheel pinion.

Then I'm gonna fire it up and see if it runs without help. If it do, I'm gonna ASSUME that I've cured the problem...unless and until circumstances prove otherwise. Some problems gotta be dealt with empirically, even if we don't know for sure WHICH maneuver led to the desired result.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...for now.

bangster

 

[Scottie-TX]

BONG; The procedure you describe is "SHOTGUNNING". Sometimes it works. If you're lucky. Most often you're not lucky. They do it all the time at the auto garage. You take it in for a failed gas guage. They replace the gauge, the gauge driver card, the gas tank sensor and all the wiring. It works now but simply repairing the broken wire would have fixed it initially. The better procedure is to find EXACTLY what is wrong ( the broken wire ) - repair that. THEN do your shotgun maintenance simply as a prudent follow-up. Yup. An' I'm gonna push some more. Shotgun troubleshooting is only minimally successful.

 

[bangster]

Yup. 'Cept I ain't planning to do a whole buncha things and hope for the best. I'm planning on doing ONE thing (I'm betting on the pivots), and unless I find something suspicious in wheel or pinion, I'm gonna see if I can get it to repeat the symptoms with just that adjustment. If it doesn't repeat within a reasonable time, I'm willing to say that my bet was correct. Don't know any other way to proceed, if I can't get it to hang up again after the pivot-work.

Could something else be the actual cause? Maybe. Could it resume its misbehavior sometime in the future? Maybe. But until it does, I got no basis from which to proceed further.

bangster

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by Scottie-TX:
BONG; The procedure you describe is "SHOTGUNNING". Sometimes it works. If you're lucky. Most often you're not lucky. They do it all the time at the auto garage. You take it in for a failed gas guage. They replace the gauge, the gauge driver card, the gas tank sensor and all the wiring. It works now but simply repairing the broken wire would have fixed it initially. The better procedure is to find EXACTLY what is wrong ( the broken wire ) - repair that. THEN do your shotgun maintenance simply as a prudent follow-up. Yup. An' I'm gonna push some more. Shotgun troubleshooting is only minimally successful.

Scottie is absolutely right here, and as an aside, it is one of the reasons I do not use garages.

The idea is to diagnose the problem first, then repair or replace parts, not the other way round!

Sometimes the first part of the diagnosis is just making sure you have all the symptoms and then spend a lot of time thinking about it.
Works on clocks, cars, radios, almost everything, and is cheaper, gives better results and is quicker. No contest!

 

[RJSoftware]

Basically Bang is telling you that he is doing all that he can speculate to do, and that is not shotgun.

Plus the step that he is taking is not r&r (remove and replace) which is part of shotgun technique. He is integrating a maintinance step into the diagnostic.

He has already identified a problematic gear and is taking the next logical step. I imagine he will examin via magnifying glass the pivot/bushing surface before burnishing.

RJ

 

[harold bain]

Mike, in the world of repair, the shotgun method can be more cost effective, if the time spent "thinking" is added to the bill. However, developing troubleshooting techniques that involve logic and basic knowledge of how something should work will cut into the "thinking" time needed. :biggrin:
Harold

 

[bangster]

I don't see much disagreement here (except maybe the imputation that I ain't doing it right). Agreed that it's desirable to isolate the "actual cause". But actual causes don't jump up with a red label on their foreheads saying ACTUAL CAUSE, LOOK NO FURTHER. Rather, you study the situation until you notice something and say aha! that looks like IT.

At that point, there are a couple of avenues open. One is to keep looking in case you find something else that might be IT, and so on. Then you set out to settle on one of the possibilities, by eliminating the others somehow.

Another avenue, and the one I adopt, is to test that first discovery by making the appropriate adjustment and seeing whether the problem goes away (or appears to, over an extended period, without recurrence). If it passes that test (problem doesn't recur), I don't see much point in continuing to look for other possibilities, just on the chance that non-recurrence MIGHT just be coincidence, and the actual cause MIGHT be somewheres else, waiting to kick in again at some future time.

Puh-leez note that I ain't talking shotgun approaches. That's when you do a whole buncha stuff hoping that something in the melange will have the desired result. Not my way. "My clock won't run." One approach: "Okay, let's strip it and clean it and bush all the holes and polish the pivots and clean the springs and reassemble it and put it on the test rack for a week and see if it runs then." Another approach: "Let's put it in beat, and see if it runs then." I prefer the latter. Yep.

bangster

 

[shutterbug]

I had a similar problem with a westminster chiming clock. Turned out to be a pivot hole, but I swear the thing looked fine! While under power, I could nudge the pivot with my thumb and the problem went away for a few seconds. I rebushed both sides of the offending wheel and it's been running ever since. Go figure. :0)

 

[Scottie-TX]

YES, BONG. Yes they do. They DO have a red label that reads, "look no further". That is exactly the nature of finding the problem. You see BONG, isolating the problem is an "AHA" moment. It is an AHA! moment just like SHUTTER described. It is when you find that bent tooth on the main wheel or when you see that tooth pushing against a bent trunion instead of meshing with it and you say, "AHA!" If you don't experience that AHA moment - you probably haven't found the problem. If you ASSUME you found it - you probably have not. Also in defense of an isolation procedure - a method or system of analytical approach: It can be a timesaver! Back to the fuel gauge. 1. No power to gauge. 2. power coming from driver card 3. Only thing between them is the wire. 4. There it is! Wire broken at board. AHA! It would have taken less time to isolate the problem and repair the wire than replace all the components and wire. And since there was an AHA! - you KNOW the problem was fixed. No assumption.

 

[bangster]

I b'leev I mentioned "aha!". And I still don't think we're disagreeing on basic methodology...except in one teeny respect. Suppose this: you repair the gas gauge wire, and by golly it STILL doesn't work. Your aha-moment has done let you down. You ASSUMED you found it, but you hadn't.
Or, suppose you repair the gas gauge wire, the gauge works fine until you get the car home, and drat! it's stopped working again. Your aha-moment has let you down again. You ASSUMED you found it, but you hadn't.
I think you're suggesting that in every malfunction, no matter how subtle, under careful investigation the Actual Cause is gonna jump out at you with the obviousness and certainty of a mangled pinion or a busted wire, so there will be no doubt about it...and until something whacks you with that aha-red-flag-mangled-gear Obviousness, you haven't really found the Actual Cause, you're just guessing, and so you need to keep looking.
Difference between us is that my aha-moments aren't always that spectacular, and not always cut and dried...but when I get one...that is, when I discover what looks like it's probly the cause of the problem, I'm willing to give it a shot and see if fixing it works. And if it does, then I'LL be satisfied, that I've solved the problem, even if you maybe wouldn't. I don't believe that anything is absolutely certain in this world, no matter how it may look, so I'm satisfied with pragmatic results.

Once again, I'm AFRAID you think that ol' bangster is favoring some kind of slapdash approach to repairs, and so you're trying to convince me of my errors and get me back on the right track. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm on your careful-inspection team. But I'm not going to reject a good candidate that turns up just because I'm not absolutely certain (before testing or anything) that it's the culprit. Instead, I'm going to eliminate that candidate, and see if the problem has gone away. And if it has, I'm satisfied..

And again, I'm not arguing for the shotgun, do-a-whole-buncha-stuff-and-see-what-happens approach. I'm talking about isolating out a possible cause, and testing it. If it fails the test, I'll keep looking. But if it passes, I'm satisfied and I'll stop looking. And if the problem recurs later, I'll look some more. But until it recurs, I'll have no reason to think I've made a mistake.

There's a reason why professional clocksters put a completed repair job through a lengthy test run. No matter how obvious (to them) their aha-discoveries,they're not gonna say "I found the problem and I fixed it" until it's been confirmed in the running.

Now, I'm gonna go polish a great-wheel pivot, and see what happens.

bangster
newbie-doobie

 

[harold bain]

Hi, Bang. What you are describing is the difference between rebuilding a movement, and repairing it. Often repairs can be done without rebuilding. Like with a car, does it need spark plugs or piston rings? But I always try to find the cause of the problem before taking the movement apart, as well as noting any other areas in need of attention. Once you have let the springs down, it is easier to see whether bushing work is required, or if cleaning alone might suffice.
Harold

 

[Scottie-TX]

Naw BONG. No. Not at all. I am in no way blaspheming you or your methodology. I would not do that - to you - or anyone. I am suggesting to you an analytical approach to problem solving. If you choose not to use this approach it does not make you a lesser technician. There is no "ONLY" way. It's just another way. I would address the wire scenario you mentioned tho. The scenario you describe occurs often. You already described it here in your movement - there is more than one problem. The wire WAS a problem. There is now another. In the form of "EDIT" BONG, I add: To your credit in this analysis, you already used this process to determine the problem. When the clock stopped, you didn't start polishing pivots, replacing bushings, and changing springs to see if one of those would fix it. YOU determined that the problem was loss of power. In fact you've determined what is often the most difficult part of the process - "WHY is it stopping?" I've been for days now ( "Beat vs Weight") with a clock that stops and haven't even arrived at the reason it stops.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by harold bain:
Mike, in the world of repair, the shotgun method can be more cost effective, if the time spent "thinking" is added to the bill. However, developing troubleshooting techniques that involve logic and basic knowledge of how something should work will cut into the "thinking" time needed. :biggrin:
Harold

I agree, Harold. When you have learnt how to diagnose things, maybe the diagnosis is that it may be quicker and cheaper to replace, with two provisos:
(1) There may be reasons apart from pure cost involved - cost is but one factor.
(2) There is a difference in approach in the two sides of the pond, or maybe just an individual one. I am not a member of the throwaway society and not a lover of reducing all things to cost.

I was not intimating that Bang was going to use the shotgun approach (like that term!) but rather the reasons for not using it. When it is used as a replacement for knowledge or skill (cf garages) then it is no use at all.

Diagnosis is like a binary tree - each question should have only two possible answers.

 

[bangster]

Okay, enough of this methodology stuff, and back to a specific problem.

Edge of exit pallet (strap anchor) comes down smack dab on the tip of a scape tooth, and everthing locks up.

What adjustment would be recommended to fix that?

bangster

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Bangster-

You have no exit drop and should increase the distance between the pallets and escape wheel. The entrance drop and exit drop should be equal.

Good luck with it!

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by bangster:
Okay, enough of this methodology stuff, and back to a specific problem.

Edge of exit pallet (strap anchor) comes down smack dab on the tip of a scape tooth, and everthing locks up.

What adjustment would be recommended to fix that?

bangster

At this point, is the entry pallet actually leaning on the tooth? You see, it if is, there is an escapement problem, if not, the escape wheel is not receiving power.
Cannot remember (aka too lazy to look!) but was the clock originally running?

 

[Scottie-TX]

He describes two distinctly different problems MIKE: 1. at times there is no power to scapewheel and 2. at the time when there is power, motion ceases when a tooth can't escape the pallet. So clock stops for two reasons: 1. Loss of power and 2. incorrect drop or scapewheel (tooth/teeth) problem.

 

[lofty]

Hi Bangster, the first thing I always look at in a clock displaying the symptons that yours has, is the bushes in the escape wheel. If you have too much side shake there it will stop a clock fairly quickly.
Regards ... Lofty

 

[Scottie-TX]

BONG, ya might try this. You KNOW the clock stops when a tooth can't escape. Why don't you address that problem first - as others have counseled - adjust the drop to eliminate that. Then the clock will be stopping for only ONE reason - loss of power, and you can then resume addressing that problem. You have I believe, one readily solvable problem. Solve that. Move on.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by Scottie-TX:
BONG, ya might try this. You KNOW the clock stops when a tooth can't escape. Why don't you address that problem first - as others have counseled - adjust the drop to eliminate that. Then the clock will be stopping for only ONE reason - loss of power, and you can then resume addressing that problem. You have I believe, one readily solvable problem. Solve that. Move on.

Yep - just apply a bit of power to the train further up.

I would be inclined to solve the loss of power first, to make it easier to adjust the escapement.

As Lofty says, make sure there is no shake in the escape wheel or pallet bushes, and that the escape wheel teeth are not bent, causing the baulking on one or a few teeth.

 

[Smudgy]

I just thought I'd mention, in case you didn't know, that if the pivots don't make it all the way through the plate the wearing on the pivot hole may not be very obvious. The wear will tend to allow the pivot to wear behind the plate, and this type of wear will cause a loss of endshake until the pivot is again aligned with the original hole. If this has happened to your clock it would explain the pop you noticed followed by the clock running. so check if your pivots clear the plate, and if not check for wear from the inside.

 

[bangster]

AHA! AHA! Bent handshaft. Didn't notice it running at normal clock speed, but obvious when I stripped first & second wheels out and spun the train fast. Could it be that this has been causing power to be stolen out there in the motion work? Could that be the source of my loss of power? May-bee so.

Anyhow, would y'all give me your opinion on the best way to straighten it? Put it on an anvil block and attack it with a hammer, like straightening a nail? Chuck it in the lathe and do something or other to it? What? I await enlightenment.

bangster

 

[Scottie-TX]

"Is it the problem?" you ask. Before you straighten it, install the motion works, let down the springs, remove the verge and see if it binds there. If it does not cause binding - and a minor bend often will not - if it does not cause binding it is not a problem - simply a repair you'll want to make. How much of a bend? Two degrees? Ten or more degrees?

 

[Mike Phelan]

Originally posted by bangster:
AHA! AHA! Bent handshaft.
Anyhow, would y'all give me your opinion on the best way to straighten it? Put it on an anvil block and attack it with a hammer, like straightening a nail? Chuck it in the lathe and do something or other to it? What? I await enlightenment.

bangster

Hi Bang
Neither - just straighten it with your fingers or pliers, but note Scottie's post first.

 

[bangster]

Originally posted by Scottie-TX:
"Is it the problem?" you ask. Before you straighten it, install the motion works, let down the springs, remove the verge and see if it binds there. If it does not cause binding - and a minor bend often will not - if it does not cause binding it is not a problem - simply a repair you'll want to make. How much of a bend? Two degrees? Ten or more degrees?

I did something similar. Here's the latest chapter of this saga.
Removed the verge and let the train spin free, which is when I saw the bent handshaft. Removed the mainspring and gave the train a finger-impulse. It would coast for a bit, then stop. Looked to me like the wheel on the hour pipe was riding up (because of bend) on its pinion and rubbing against the keeper.

Straightened the bent handshaft and cleaned it up. Ran a smoothing broach in both ends of the hour pipe Just In Case. Put it back together with just going train and motion work (no verge no spring). Gave it a spin and it coasted freely, eventually slowing and stopping. Looked to me like I had fixed THAT problem.

It's all back together now, and so far there have been no episodes of power loss to the escape wheel. NOW THENS, if I can just figure out how to get the verge set right, and get it in beat, I just may have an actual functioning movement.

bangster
evolving newbie

 

[Scottie-TX]

BONG! I believe you have observed the motion works binding due to a bent handshaft. BONG? I believe you had an AHA! moment. Did you see the RED label?

 

[bangster]

Note to my friend Scottie:

Shaddup.

bangster

 

[shutterbug]

And I was beginning to think that clock was going to be a "for display only" model :0)