Escape Wheel / Verge Problems Seth Thomas Ogee

[Bill Willey]

Beginner with another problem:

I can't seem to adjust the verge/escape wheel. Videos attached should show the problem. When weight is slightly wound and released the wheel keeps slipping after stopping. I also show the wear on the bearing for the pinion for the escape wheel. I know it is worn, but am led to believe that these clocks can run well even with that amount of wear. Any help or suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Bill W.

 

[Willie X]

Can't get those videos to load, might be just me.

Early clocks will often run with a lot of problems. However, they will run a lot better when put in 'good running order'.

I think they deserve some high quality TLC. The ole baby will be better off if the patch jobs are left undone, IMO.

Willie.X

 

[Vernon]

You now have enough wear so that it won't run and it's time for a clean and repairing of the worn parts. The few of these that I worked on had almost every pinion worn.

 

[Grant Perry]

Wow, just watched the video. Don't run the clock until you fix the depthing of the verge. That is going to kill your escape wheel. The escape wheel should be advancing one tooth at a time. The bearing for the escape wheel is part of the issue, but move the pallet in closer to start. First remove the weight, next loosen the screw that holds the saddle, then move the saddle left which will increase the depth on the verge into the escape wheel. This should stop that spinning that you are experiencing.

 

[Bill Willey]

Can't get those videos to load, might be just me.

Early clocks will often run with a lot of problems. However, they will run a lot better when put in 'good running order'.

I think they deserve some high quality TLC. The ole baby will be better off if the patch jobs are left undone, IMO.

Willie.X

Ok, I guess I knew this. I just thought I could get this running for now. Have been buying lots of tools. Am going to the Mart at the Nation convention and hope to pick up a good lathe, etc. so I can dive into this in earnest. I will put this one aside until I am ready to work on it. Videos I have seen, and books I have read all seemed to say that a clock like this is the best kind for a beginner to start. Thanks for the feedback. BTW other were able to view the videos.

 

[Bill Willey]

You now have enough wear so that it won't run and it's time for a clean and repairing of the worn parts. The few of these that I worked on had almost every pinion worn.

Ok, I guess I knew this. I just thought I could get this running for now. Have been buying lots of tools. Am going to the Mart at the Nation convention and hope to pick up a good lathe, etc. so I can dive into this in earnest. I will put this one aside until I am ready to work on it. Videos I have seen, and books I have read all seemed to say that a clock like this is the best kind for a beginner to start. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Bill Willey]

Wow, just watched the video. Don't run the clock until you fix the depthing of the verge. That is going to kill your escape wheel. The escape wheel should be advancing one tooth at a time. The bearing for the escape wheel is part of the issue, but move the pallet in closer to start. First remove the weight, next loosen the screw that holds the saddle, then move the saddle left which will increase the depth on the verge into the escape wheel. This should stop that spinning that you are experiencing.

View attachment 662974

I have been moving the saddle back and forth as you suggest. Will not work. I just thought I could get this running for now. Have been buying lots of tools. Am going to the Mart at the Nation convention and hope to pick up a good lathe, etc. so I can dive into this in earnest. I will put this one aside until I am ready to work on it. Videos I have seen, and books I have read all seemed to say that a clock like this is the best kind for a beginner to start. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Bill Willey]

You now have enough wear so that it won't run and it's time for a clean and repairing of the worn parts. The few of these that I worked on had almost every pinion worn.

Ok, I guess I knew this. I just thought I could get this running for now, and then really overhaul it later. Have been buying lots of tools. Am going to the Mart at the Nation convention and hope to pick up a good lathe, etc. so I can dive into this in earnest. I will put this one aside until I am ready to work on it. Videos I have seen, and books I have read all seemed to say that a clock like this is the best kind for a beginner to start. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Willie X]

You can run the escapement safely using finger power to the rim of the second wheel.

Adjusting the anchor saddle pin up and down takes VERY small movements. Sometimes this is made easier if you leave the locking screw snug and use a long thin punch and a small hammer to LIGHTLY tap the arm up or down. I've been doing it this way for many years.

If you just can't get equal drops on both sides, the problem might be that the pallet tips are spaced wrong. This is very common where worn out pallets have been filed or replaced.

You picked the right clock to learn on.

Willie.X

 

[Bill Willey]

You can run the escapement safely using finger power to the rim of the second wheel.

Adjusting the anchor saddle pin up and down takes VERY small movements. Sometimes this is made easier if you leave the locking screw snug and use a long thin punch and a small hammer to LIGHTLY tap the arm up or down. I've been doing it this way for many years.

If you just can't get equal drops on both sides, the problem might be that the pallet tips are spaced wrong. This is very common where worn out pallets have been filed or replaced.

You picked the right clock to learn on.

Willie.X

I'm very discouraged. I bought a verge assembly from Merrit's (their number P1441 UV-4900 Verge ) that I thought would work on my clock. Another dealer shows that it will work on a "Seth Thomas 30 -Hour O. G., Half-Pillar Case, 42T) The escape wheel on my clock has 42 teeth. However, it is not a half-pillar case. Rather it is just the plain Ogee case. The item from Merrit's will not fit. I don't know the terminology, but the brass bracket that fits on the pin holding the verge is too wide. The pin does not pernitrate the outside hole, so it just flops around. I am wondering if there is any way to locate a proper one. Maybe I could find something Friday at the Mart

Thanks much for your comments on this and other problems. Bill W.

 

[Vernon]

I ran into the same issue where the verge was too fat. I believe that I just replaced the pin with a longer one.
Besides what has been mentioned, you may need to straighten out the teeth on the escape wheel but that bushing may still be a troublemaker. I Shure wish that I could make it to the national.

 

[Bill Willey]

I ran into the same issue where the verge was too fat. I believe that I just replaced the pin with a longer one.
Besides what has been mentioned, you may need to straighten out the teeth on the escape wheel but that bushing may still be a troublemaker. I Shure wish that I could make it to the national.

Where did you find a replacement pin? I checked TimeSavers and here is what I see:

Verge Pin Plate-Old Style
Description: Brass pin plate with steel pin. Old style.
Item #: 12284

This comes assembled. All other pins they have are the tapered type. Thanks much, Bill W.

 

[shutterbug]

The main issue is that the verge is too far away from the escape wheel. Follow the above advise on how to move it, and go slow! Tiny movements make big changes. If that doesn't do it then the verge itself may require some modification. Your pivot hole is quite worn, but I think you're correct in assuming it will still run that way for a while.
I can't tell for sure, but it looks like your verge height adjustment may be close to maxed out. Let us know if that's the case.

 

[Vernon]

I just drove out the old pin and cut a length of pivot wire the size needed and inserted it. Maybe a sewing needle would work? You could add a little adhesive if you like. Make sure that the new pin will fit the holes in the verge, otherwise you will need to open up those holes and that metal is very thin.
Vernon

Where did you find a replacement pin?

 

[Dave Stelling]

Beginner with another problem:

I can't seem to adjust the verge/escape wheel. Videos attached should show the problem. When weight is slightly wound and released the wheel keeps slipping after stopping. I also show the wear on the bearing for the pinion for the escape wheel. I know it is worn, but am led to believe that these clocks can run well even with that amount of wear. Any help or suggestions appreciated. Thanks. Bill W.

Having this same issue w/ a S. Thomas half-column, 30-hour.
Very, very slight adjustments is key; I realize - but very difficult too!
Hope you've had some success...

 

[Richard.W]

I have been moving the saddle back and forth as you suggest. Will not work.

I think WillieX was suggesting moving the arm that holds the pivot pin (the Pivot Pin Support). When that support arm is pivoted clock-wise, the pallet engagement will become deeper into the escapement wheel. That is the result you need. The retaining screw may limit the arm's travel, in which case you will need to elongate the screw's slot to allow additional rotation.

I bought a verge assembly from Merrit's (their number P1441 UV-4900 Verge ) that I thought would work on my clock. Another dealer shows that it will work on a "Seth Thomas 30 -Hour O. G., Half-Pillar Case, 42T) The escape wheel on my clock has 42 teeth.

• So, what was wrong with the original verge ? You can usually stone away most worn or blemished pallet areas easier than fitting a replacement.
• Is the replacement anchor the exact same length ? The catalog notations are simply suggestions.
• If you have the Timesavers catalog they have a small suggestion section.

I agree, the swap is not straightforward, but it can be done with patience and care. Keep at it. You'll get it.

 

[Willie X]

First thing, with the pallet assembly in hand, put the exit pallet's tip (point to point) with any escape-wheel tooth. Then carefully bring the entrance pallet down to the level of the teeth, usually about 6 or 8 teeth over. The entrance pallet tooth should be exactly half way between two escaoe wheel teeth. This spacing has to be made right at the start, then go back to the actions in post #9.

Note, the drawing that Chime just posted shows a pallet spacing that will never work. Also, you should never have to " elongate the depth adjustment screw's slot" to make this adjustment. The dog bone shaped support plate rotates and usually allows a huge adjustment range. Don't loosen the screw as already covered in post #9

Willie X

 

[bikerclockguy]

First thing, with the pallet assembly in hand, put the exit pallet's tip (point to point) with any escape-wheel tooth. Then carefully bring the entrance pallet down to the level of the teeth, usually about 6 or 8 teeth over. The entrance pallet tooth should be exactly half way between two escaoe wheel teeth. This spacing has to be made right at the stary, then go back to the actions in post #9.

Note, the drawing that Chime just posted shows a pallet spacing that will never work. Also, you should never have to " elongate the depth adjustment screw's slot" to make this adjustment. The dog bone shaped support plate rotates and usually allows a huge adjustment range. Don't loosen the screw as already covered in post #9

Willie X

I’ve never had to adjust a verge depth, but now I know how to do it when that comes up. Thanks, Wille, for a simple and straightforward explanation!

 

[shutterbug]

I’ve never had to adjust a verge depth, but now I know how to do it when that comes up. Thanks, Wille, for a simple and straightforward explanation!

One of the best things to do is to make a verge out of the "Fits-All Verge" blank sold by Timesavers and probably other suppliers too. By the time you get the verge working correctly, you will have leaned a great deal about verges and their adjustment

 

[zhutanbai]

Change the arc of point A and point B to get the balance of C, D, E

 

[Dave Stelling]

Wow, just watched the video. Don't run the clock until you fix the depthing of the verge. That is going to kill your escape wheel. The escape wheel should be advancing one tooth at a time. The bearing for the escape wheel is part of the issue, but move the pallet in closer to start. First remove the weight, next loosen the screw that holds the saddle, then move the saddle left which will increase the depth on the verge into the escape wheel. This should stop that spinning that you are experiencing.

View attachment 662974

I'm having the same issue.
I'm not sure about depthing the saddle.
Seems that it's either too "Tight," or too "Loose."

 

[Bill Willey]

I'm having the same issue.
I'm not sure about depthing the saddle.
Seems that it's either too "Tight," or too "Loose."

I had put the clock away until Monday when I spent the day with a friend and clock repair person near me. I took the clock with me. Turns out all the verge was just too wide. He had an old used one and it fits perfectly. Clock running perfectly now. Surprises me that the pendulum barely moves. I bought lots of verges from Merritt's and TimeSavers but none of them would work. This surprises me because Seth Thomas OGee clock are so common, I would think the clock suppliers would have what is needed. Maybe the ones the sell work on others, maybe most others, but I don't think the one I have is unusual. Seems like the run of the mill type to me. BTW, thanks for your posting.

 

[Dave G]

Note, the drawing that Chime just posted shows a pallet spacing that will never work. Also, you should never have to " elongate the depth adjustment screw's slot" to make this adjustment. The dog bone shaped support plate rotates and usually allows a huge adjustment range. Don't loosen the screw as already covered in post #9

Willie X

This was the key to figuring out what is wrong with my clock. I have the same problem as Bill with an old ogee clock that my great great grandfather bought new when he arrived in the US. It stopped working after a century or so. It can run for 20 sec and then hang up. There is a very small adjustment of the verge between spinning as in the video and not moving at all. The ends of the verge are not spaced properly, which made no sense since it ran well for so long.

A retired clock repair man said it needs a new escape wheel. He doesn't have the tool to press fit a new one and was not able to adjust the verge well enough to get it to run. What I know about clock repair is what he told me and what I have read here. (next to nothing) I have done a fair amount of failure analysis, which usually involves worn out and broken things that I had never seen before, so this is familiar unfamiliar territory.

The leading face of the escape wheel is heavily worn, but looks normal to the untrained eye. I know because I have an untrained eye and it looks good to me with less than a 10x magnifying glass. The verge will rest on two tooth tips and bind in several positions and slip a few teeth in others. I had o good look at the geometry on the assumption that it must have been a good fit in 1864, but not in 2023. Since the wear is mostly on the angled leading edge, and the wear scar covers most of the tooth surface as evidenced by the length of the bur on the tooth, it looks normal, but I think it is considerably smaller now.

The picture was taken with verge adjusted to where the clock would stall after running for a few seconds.I drew identical triangles on a photograph of the worn escape wheel to represent what I think the profile looked like when new. The distance between the leading edge of the tooth on the right and the trailing edge of the tooth on the left that the verge spans increases to the point where the verge is a half tooth off as it should be. The center of the yellow verge drawing is rotated 7° around the verge pivot, so the position and orientation of the verge drawing is very close to where they would be if I had physically rotated the verge clockwise to adjust it.

Can the left end of the verge be bent up and left around a millimeter to compensate for the wear on the escape wheel? I can't accurately draw the adjustment needed. This is the limit of my ability to draw using Excel.

 

[shutterbug]

Probably tightening the bend would be better .... but it has to be annealed first. Those pallets are hardened and very brittle. Correcting a verge is a skill that is learned, and not something you want to guess about. You could very easily get into more trouble than you have now.

 

[Willie X]

The verge looks OK and the E-wheel can probably be 'trued up', just make sure you know what you are doing before you start doing!

Hear Bug's warning ... that sucka will snap like a twig. So, just don't go there, would be my recommendation.

Willie X

 

[Dave G]

The verge looks OK and the E-wheel can probably be 'trued up', just make sure you know what you are doing before you start doing!

Hear Bug's warning ... that sucka will snap like a twig. So, just don't go there, would be my recommendation.

Willie X

Tanks for the warning. I read a little more about what I am up against here, and it all points in that direction. I found Ward Goodrich's book and see that I am in over my head.

The modern clock; a study of time keeping mechanism; its construction, regulation, and repair : Goodrich, Ward L : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

512 p. : 20 cm

archive.org

That piece of 1860s carbon steel is probably as flexible as glass. it is too bad that they didn't quench just the tips of the paddles and leave the center section ductile. That would make it possible for me to ruin it without breaking it. Someone who can bend it to the right shape would have an easier time of it.

 

[shutterbug]

Usually that's the case. The center might be pliable, but not the pallets.

 

[Dave G]

I thought it over and decided that the risk of damaging the parts that need to be replaced isn't much of a risk. The verge may have been brittle, but it isn't hard to temper the center section to make it more ductile. You need a hot piece of metal contacting a small area of the verge. The bend area needs to be around 6-700F while the paddles have to stay under 400.

The main reason for posting again is to describe one easy way to temper the center section of the verge. Also an easy way to check the hardness with a file, which I had forgotten until after tempering it. It would be nice to have a set of SAE J864 files, but any file will tell very hard from not very hard or 'will definitely break' from 'might bend a little'.

I have a hot knife rope cutter that will get red hot across the center of the blade. It is hotter than a soldering iron, but one of those might also do the job. Plain carbon steel changes color with temperature consistently enough to judge the temper. https://cdn-blog.adafruit.com/uploads/2016/06/steel-color-spectrum.png The steel needs to be polished to see the colors. Cleaned with a file is adequate on rough work, but this won't tolerate the damage. I polished the verge with some rouge and a Dremel tool. Then I held the rope cutter near the center and watched the color change. When the paddles started to turn a faint yellow color I dropped the verge in cold water to stop the spread of heat.

I should have checked with a file prior to heating the verge. If a file won't scratch it the steel is harder than the file and will be brittle. If a file scratches the surface, it is softer than the file and not as brittle. You won't know how soft without a special set of hardness test files. The it is enough to show that the part has been heat treated to make localized areas harder than the rest. Or heat treated badly, but that's for larger parts than this.

I got lucky. I spread the tips about .5mm using two pairs of needle nose pliers. The verge pivot could be adjusted to stop or spin, but not run properly. The verge looked like it was not lining up correctly with the wheel. I also read that the verge wire needs adjusting by bending. So I bent it. If I understand this correctly, if the verge is contacting the gear teeth at the wrong angle it is likely to wear rapidly. It looks good to my untrained eye. I just might not see the problem. Untrained eye, lack of experience. One way or another it seems to be working for now.

 

[Dave G]

Correction. The clock ran for 24 hours. Then it went back to acting like the one in the video in the first post. I expect that no one is surprised.

After much measuring etc. I missed the mark by a millimeter. The escape wheel has 42 teeth. The diameter is about 1.36" so about .102"/tooth. The verge measures .763 and that spans 7.96teeth, if I measured the diameter accurately, and there is some doubt about that. Looks like I bent it almost the right amount in the wrong direction. So the advice to tighten was good. As was the advice to " just make sure you know what you are doing before you start doing!"

 

[Dave G]

For what it's worth for the other neophytes out there; there was another problem with the verge that I neglected to look for. The joint between the verge and the brass wire was loose. When placed on a piece of graph paper, the far end of the rod could be moved just over 1/4 inch. It wasn't just flopping around, it had to be moved by gently pushing it.

The loose rod to verge joint allows the verge to rock back and forth and let the escape wheel spin, skip several teeth or dissipate enough of the energy driving the pendulum that it will stop after a short time. Everything looks like it should run, but it vibrates too much to adjust it properly.

By gripping the verge wire in a vise just against the upset (widened bit) below the verge, I was able to tap the end with a punch to tighten the riveted joint.

The escape wheel is ~1.36 in. diameter and has 42 teeth. With a little trig and help from Radius of an Arc or Arch with calculator - Math Open Reference the space between teeth is 0.1017 in or 8.57° (I measured ~.1, not easy without taking it out of the clock). The chord between 8 teeth is 0.766 in. The verge should be either 0.724 or 0.808 for 7½ or 8½ teeth. I wound up with about 0.81. I did heed the advice to shorten it, but since the brass rod was loose that didn't work. When 0.81 wasn't any better, I looked harder and found the loose verge rod.

If I don't return with the next lesson in why you shouldn't meddle, it is still working. I'm probably not done.