English Verge: help with dating

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by fuseefan, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. fuseefan

    fuseefan Registered User

    Dec 28, 2007
    267
    1
    18
    Country Flag:
    Hello,

    I have had this watch for nearly a year. It does not work. Since the case is nickel I have been unable to date it. I hope all the knowledgable people here can help me in that regard.

    Well, it is an English fusee-verge. it has a tompion type regulator, I think that might help with dating.

    I have attached pictures of the hallmarks on the back cover as well as the inner cover.

    Here's what is engraved on the movement.
    The watchmakers name appears to be "Tobias Fletcher"
    The town appears to be "Barnsley"
    Movement no. is "842". This is repeated on the inside of the inner cover.

    Thanks in advance for your help

    Kind regards

    Aditya
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Jerry Matthews

    Jerry Matthews Registered User

    Sep 20, 2005
    961
    0
    0
    Retired
    Sussex, England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Aditya,

    There was a Tobias Fletcher, watchmaker in Barnsley, Yorkshire. Born about 1750, died 1813.

    The marks are most unusual for an English-made case, although the matching serial numbers are an indication that the movement and case are original to each.

    Are there any traces that the case was originally gilt which has now worn off?

    Jerry
     
  3. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 30, 2001
    2,107
    191
    63
    Male
    Green Bay, Wi
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    With the case being nickle I would assume that this is a watch that has had a new case made at some point.. The style of the open face case would date to approx 1840 or so, being nickle there would be no hallmarks.. the case could be a lot new.. the other fact indicating a recase is the over size dial.. I believe Jerry has dated the movement correctly.. The movement styl would indicate a smaller overall watch.. I would assume, again, when it was recased a newer larger dial was added as well. These 2 updates would of brought the watch up to current style..
     
  4. duende

    duende Registered User

    Mar 25, 2008
    12
    0
    0
    The above post appears spot on and certainly answers your question to a large extent.

    As a note, well, I have searched everywhere (I know, if I searched *everywhere* I would have found it) yet cannot find those marks anywhere, and have never seen them before personally either.

    A date of c1790 sounds accurate.

    Lovely timepiece.
     
  5. fuseefan

    fuseefan Registered User

    Dec 28, 2007
    267
    1
    18
    Country Flag:
    Thank you very much for your replies Jerry, John & Duende!!! appreciate it:)

    Jerry, to my untrained eye, the case does not show any signs of being gilded. It is in great condition though. I think, nickel being harder, it had fared well over all these years.

    John, here is a picture of the dial+carrier and movement side by side. There is a disproportionate size difference. So, as you say, this case might have been made later after the original (pair?) case surrefed some sort of accident or just wore out.

    Altogether, I am quite pleased to find that the movement atleast is much older than I thought it was.

    Aditya
     

    Attached Files:

  6. fuseefan

    fuseefan Registered User

    Dec 28, 2007
    267
    1
    18
    Country Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    I realise this is a very old thread but I only just came across it. I have got a watch made by Tobias Fletcher of Barnsley. It is believed that the movement is from about 1795 and the nickel case, dial and hands are later modifications

    verge_front.jpg

    verge_side.jpg

    verge_mov.jpg
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,347
    1,096
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    Hi fuseefan,

    Although the case and dial are clearly later than the movement, (which looks to be last quarter 18th century), are there any marks in the case, or other clues which lead you to believe that it's nickel? It would be most unusual if it is.

    As this is a watch, and the thread is old, it would perhaps be better if you asked a Moderator to move it to its own thread in European and Other Watches.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. fuseefan

    fuseefan Registered User

    Dec 28, 2007
    267
    1
    18
    Country Flag:
    #8 fuseefan, Apr 20, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2016
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    Hello Graham,

    This watch has got it's own thread In the European and other watches section (now part of thios thread). There are pictures of the false 'hallmarks' in that thread.

    Kind regards

    Aditya
     
  9. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 15, 2004
    20,971
    659
    113
    Male
    Ne’er do well
    Here and there
    Country Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    I have moved this thread to the European and Other Pocket Watches forum.
     
  10. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,939
    251
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    I have now merged FuseeFan's latest posts into the old thread he started some years ago. This brings all the rlevant information together in one thread.

    I have also edited out some redundant comments.
     
  11. fuseefan

    fuseefan Registered User

    Dec 28, 2007
    267
    1
    18
    Country Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    I posted in the other thread today because in that thread Tobias Fletcher's descendent had requested pictures of his work.

    Kind regards

    Aditya
     
  12. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,939
    251
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Tobias Fletcher Barnsley

    No problem, Aditya ... but that thread was 18 months old and it's very unlikely that Fletcher's descendant is still reading this message board ;)

    For those interested in another Tobias Fletcher watch, and also one by Chas Fletcher, this is the other thread.
     
  13. Fletcher44

    Fletcher44 Registered User

    Oct 21, 2013
    6
    0
    0
    Political Monitoring
    Sheffield
    Country Flag:
    Still reading and interested in any watches or clocks by Fletchers in the barnsley area if the date was between 1790 to 1795 then it would have been the 1st Tobias Fletcher born in Holbeck Leeds 1751 died 1811 barnsley at least 3 of his sons were also clock & watch makers Tobias 1782 to 1841, Thomas 1780 to 1870 and Charles 1775 to 1842 as was his father John Fletcher clockmaker Leeds Holbeck, I have gathered quite a lot of information over the years so if i can ever be of any help please feel free to ask as nearly all the clockmakers named Fletcher from barnsley, rotherham and leeds are related as well as William Frederick Fletcher clockmaker 1811 to 1901 Aston under lyne lancashire son of Thomas. Regards Richard Fletcher

     
  14. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

    Apr 10, 2008
    1,316
    95
    48
    Male
    Hertfordshire England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #14 Les harland, Sep 16, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
    There is a piece of writing on the wall in my local Church Tower, St Marys Welwyn Hertfordshire UK
    It is Jeffrey Fletcher 17
    App Clockmaker
    Derby 1961

    Is this one of your relations ?
    I will get a decent picture as soon as I can
    My avatar is the clock he would have been working on
     
  15. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

    Apr 10, 2008
    1,316
    95
    48
    Male
    Hertfordshire England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I hope this is clear enough

    clockmaker.jpg
     
  16. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    81,802
    1,298
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I doubt there is any relationship, but it is possible. This clock was made by John Fletcher of London. He was Tom Mercer's Master. This piece was made around 1850.

    dial.jpg
     
  17. Fletcher44

    Fletcher44 Registered User

    Oct 21, 2013
    6
    0
    0
    Political Monitoring
    Sheffield
    Country Flag:
    Hi Les no Jeffrey Fletchers as far as i know but thank you anyway, most of them did not venture too far from the yorkshire area i myself am from Sheffield and from my research there are still quite a lot in the barnsley area as for my 5th Great uncle Thomas Fletcher 1780 to 1870 his line were still working with clocks well into the mid 1900s, we did however have a female clockmaker who i believe took over from her husband John Fletcher 1739 to 1778 barnsley her name was Cecila or Cecelia Fletcher she was working first in Barnsley then in Rotherham between 1770 to 1795 1024.jpg 1878.jpg 532.JPG
     
  18. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,939
    251
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    Hi Fletcher44, I'm sure that the clock collectors on this board would be very interested to see your photos, and might be able to help you with your family research.

    Why not start a new thread in our Clock General forum?
     
  19. Fletcher44

    Fletcher44 Registered User

    Oct 21, 2013
    6
    0
    0
    Political Monitoring
    Sheffield
    Country Flag:
    Thank you my apologies Martyr get slightly carried away when picking up new info on my family and understand this forum was probably not the right place to be posting pictures willy nilly, but will take up your offer of using the clock general forum the next time i need a little help. Regards Richard
     
  20. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 16, 2008
    10,939
    251
    83
    UK
    Country Flag:
    No apology necessary, Richard. We love to have people posting here who are carrying out family research - my suggestion was intended solely to help you with your research. Watch and clock collecting are surprisingly different fields, and there seem to be fairly few who cross the boundary ;)
     
  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,978
    427
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, bring your longcase over to the clock side we are very friendly though UK made longcase are few in number there. I have an interest in pocket watches, wristwatches, turret clocks, and longcase but not many have such eclectic tastes and longcase collectors are few in number.
     
  22. Beech Grove

    Beech Grove New Member

    May 25, 2018
    3
    0
    1
    Female
    Country Flag:
    Hi, it's a couple if years down the road but I saw your early post re Fletcher watches. I have a pocket watch engraved with Chase Fletcher Barnsley and was wondering if you have garnered more info on his watches. Would live to figure out more about mine.
     
  23. Beech Grove

    Beech Grove New Member

    May 25, 2018
    3
    0
    1
    Female
    Country Flag:
    Sorry for typos!
     

Share This Page