English Long Case - Did the eyes move?

[Micam100]

This clock was given to a friend, by a neighbour who was moving and didn't want it. My wife has found a Morris Scott who looks to be a candidate for the signature. She has found traces of him in the period 1858 to 1890 at Vyse Street and Frederick Street in Newhall Hill / Birmingham. I'm wondering if this period fits with this clock.

The dial depicts what we think is a lion catching a deer although the style is fairly naive, and the deer's head would look more at home on a fox. The lion's eyes coincide with holes in the dial plate and are painted on some material attached to the back of the plate. Could this dial have come from a clock with eyes that moved? And was this a thing on English long case? There's no sign on the back of the dial, or the movement, of a suitable mechanism. Perhaps a marriage? It has a false plate with a hole to allow clearance for the rack hook post. That hole is very roughly made.

Any thoughts on age, the eyes issue, or anything else that we can pass on to our friend?

Michael

 

[zedric]

Almost certainly the eyes used to move. See here for a similar design

 

[Micam100]

Thanks Zedric, now I know what it is, or was. Any idea if there are clues to the time period of production that would fit with our Morris Scott in the last half of the nineteenth century?

Michael

 

[zedric]

It definitely looks like a late clock - the wide body fits with Birmingham (definitely not a London clock), and the more basic painting of the spandrels and arch are later features. So to me, all looks good for this kind of date and a Birmingham location. Other will no doubt chip in..

 

[Joe Gargery]

Almost certainly the eyes used to move. See here for a similar design

I'd have the overwhelming urge to hire an artist repaint the dial with a portrait of one of my ancestors from the 19th century, in place of the lion.
....and then place it in the guest bedroom.

 

[Micam100]

It definitely looks like a late clock

Thanks Zedric. We found two M. Scotts in Loomes's "Watchmakers and..." and both are Morris, with plausible dates and not far apart geographically. We suspect the same person.
Michael

 

[Micam100]

....and then place it in the guest bedroom.

No sleeping for anyone in that room!

 

[jmclaugh]

Yep, it's a late painted dial longcase. The use of a falsplate is a bit unusual for this period as is the curved date aperture.

 

[Micam100]

Yep, it's a late painted dial longcase. The use of a falsplate is a bit unusual for this period as is the curved date aperture.

Thank you, Jonathan. Appreciate your confirmation.

Michael

 

[Uhralt]

I think the original eyes have gone missing and have been replaced by that painted metal plate that was glued/soldered to the back of the dial. The originals were probably two separate, painted eyeballs that could rotate around a vertical axis. The eyes would be moved by a lever attached to the crutch.

Uhralt

 

[Micam100]

Thanks, Uhralt
The clock needs some work… some bushing, repair to the crutch, and replace the missing pendulum and weights with something suitable. Reinstating the moving eyes shouldn't be too difficult but that will depend on my friend's preference.

gleber has a thread here on making a rocking ship automata but reinstating the eyes would be a much simpler proposition than the incredible job he did.

Michael

 

[wisty]

I have what looks to be an almost identical movement (in pieces) on my bench at the moment.

The dial is signed for M V R Camm Stroud, about whom I have no information. However the false plate and the back of the calendar wheel are both signed Kempson & Felton Birmingham. Kempson & Felton ( painted dialmakers ) are recorded Weaman Street, Birmingham 1808 - 1815. That would date the clock to about that period. Yours may be a very similar date.

 

[JTD]

The dial is signed for M V R Camm Stroud,

It is actually M. & R. Camm. The sign which looks somewhat like a V is in fact an ampersand (&) - an abbreviation of 'and'.

This company may well have been the retailers.

JTD

 

[wisty]

Thanks JTD that helped. A bit more exploring revealed an entry in Pigot's Directory of Gloucestershire, 1830 GENUKI: Stroud, Gloucestershire, Gloucestershire which has

CAMM Richard - Watch & Clock Maker - High Street, Stroud

which ties in with the dates on the dial false plate. M Camm may be the father, who has gone by 1830 so the clock probably dates from 1810-1815.
I will tell the owner when it gets returned.

 

[Dick C]

Here is another:

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www.antiques-atlas.com

And another with the lion: Automata Lions Eyes Longcase Clock by Vurley of Wisbech

 

[jmclaugh]

I have what looks to be an almost identical movement (in pieces) on my bench at the moment.
View attachment 755921 View attachment 755922 View attachment 755923
The dial is signed for M V R Camm Stroud, about whom I have no information. However the false plate and the back of the calendar wheel are both signed Kempson & Felton Birmingham. Kempson & Felton ( painted dialmakers ) are recorded Weaman Street, Birmingham 1808 - 1815. That would date the clock to about that period. Yours may be a very similar date.

M & R Camm are listed in Stroud 1839-52. Camm R. ('senior') & Martin bankrupt 1835 are also listed in Stroud. In addition a Martin Camm born 1806 is listed in Stroud 1830-40 and a Richard Camm born 1780 is listed in Stroud 1816-50. The Arabic numerals on the dial on this clock would date it to the general period 1800-30, the one signed Scott is a later dial.

 

[wisty]

M & R Camm are listed in Stroud 1839-52. Camm R. ('senior') & Martin bankrupt 1835 are also listed in Stroud. In addition a Martin Camm born 1806 is listed in Stroud 1830-40 and a Richard Camm born 1780 is listed in Stroud 1816-50. The Arabic numerals on the dial on this clock would date it to the general period 1800-30, the one signed Scott is a later dial.

Thanks. Very useful.

 

[Micam100]

I have what looks to be an almost identical movement (in pieces) on my bench at the moment.

Hello Wisty,
I see the similarity in layout and although I don't know enough about these clocks to make any definitive statements, there are quite a few detail differences in shapes of the rack hook, the rack itself, and the lifting lever. And also, the tooth forms on your movement appear much more "bulbouse" for want of a better word.

I can't express an opinion on the age of my friend's movement. The consensus seems to be a late dial and case and, in the absence of a mechanism to move the eyes, I feel the movement is not original to the case / dial so a different age wouldn't surprise me. Thanks for your insights.

Michael