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English Bracket with Bracket

wow

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I found this one today and made photos with my phone. The place was dark so photos are poor. I bought it and several other nice clocks which I will be posting when I get them. Plan to get them to my shop tomorrow. In the mean time, I would like info and comments about this one. Also a ball bark value if restored. Thanks.
Will

145427F9-C825-47AD-87B9-9B5C42C314D7.jpeg 90CA07A9-DAB1-46AD-B2A0-B63A372EC43A.jpeg E98D185C-63D2-45A4-AA3D-823D6BDDCE07.jpeg 024675E7-3103-4AB6-8502-DE87E7751E29.jpeg C5F8B7BC-44F3-4A92-8FF6-1CD6B8CE836C.jpeg
 
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Isaac

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It’s a triple fusee clock with chimes only on bells. For being a fusee, I’d say the price would be a few thousand more than Sals’s estimate after it is restored.
 

chimeclockfan

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Unless it's signed there's no telling who really made it. Many of these clocks are attributed to Elliott of London but there were other companies making very similar clocks, German and English, throughout the 1890's upward to 1910's.
Though very good quality, it's styled to look much older than it really is.

This advertisement from 1913 shows a similar clock.

Life 1913.jpg

No real objective value despite being a very clockly clock. A collector will pay thousands, others not so much.
Going through current auctions on eBay or other sites will give a definitive look at current values.
Having the bracket is more unusual as many of these clocks do not come with brackets when on auction.
 

Salsagev

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I don’t know. I just see these bracket clocks with bells or gongs pretty “contemporary” and there seem to be a number of them out there. They are two steps up from German contemporary bracket clocks and one step up from a basic Winterhalder. Good and ornate though! Nice find! I would keep it.
 

JTD

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I just see these bracket clocks with bells or gongs pretty “contemporary”
I don't understand. What do you mean by 'contemporary'?

They are two steps up from German contemporary bracket clocks and one step up from a basic Winterhalder.
Again, I don't understand. These triple fusee movements are generally of very high quality.

JTD
 

novicetimekeeper

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At auction you could buy an original verge with pull repeat on 6 bells for £3-4k, so it seems odd that this could be worth more than that, but stranger things have certainly happened.
 

bruce linde

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I don’t know. I just see these bracket clocks with bells or gongs pretty “contemporary” and there seem to be a number of them out there. They are two steps up from German contemporary bracket clocks and one step up from a basic Winterhalder. Good and ornate though! Nice find! I would keep it.
you say this pretty authoritatively… but i don’t understand the ‘contemporary’ part (they’re not… which is why they typically sell for thousands … especially w desirable matching shelf). they are also higher quality than winterhalder, who came later and made good clocks, but not like they used to. :)

whatever we have seen following our clock passions, you and I are both more newbies and can only offer passionate but still subjective opinions… I think it’s wise to be careful about making absolute pronouncements, as we are not Delaney or dervan (for example) or other professionals qualified to do so

and… it’s going to look gorgeous when cleaned up and the dial is resilvered. good find!
 
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Salsagev

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Considering that this needs some work,
1-2000 then.

Also considering that this does now have a coiled gong chime along with bell, that’s a big difference from the other triple fusee you get from various makers.

From recent selling prices, some very precisely made sonnerie clocks from late 1700s and early 1800s, they sell for $2-2500 so I don’t see how this would sell for more. To me, and I’m my opinion, $3-4000 would be quite high for this type of clock.
I can recall a few examples listed for $4000 and not selling yet - and can also recall some examples of older bracket clocks not even selling for $2-3000. I am going to settle at no more than $2500 in this condition.

By contemporary, I mean standard for its time - it isn’t that rare or unusual for its time.

Again, This is clearly a discussion and my opinion. I am fine with my “subjective” opinion or we will just agree on a “standard” set by a “master”.

Of course, you should be glad to own this clock. Owning something like that is impressive by itself. I agree it is beautifully made and very ornat
 

JTD

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Also considering that this does now have a coiled gong chime along with bell, that’s a big difference from the other triple fusee you get from various makers.
This is a very sweeping statement and I wonder what you base it on. A great many triple fusee clocks have gongs and bells, sometimes multiples of both.

By contemporary, I mean standard for its time - it isn’t that rare or unusual for its time.
Most things are 'standard for their time' - you made things that people wanted, otherwise your business would have a very short life. Only very occasionally and in specific circumstances can something truly be described as 'ahead of its time'.

JTD
 

new2clocks

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By contemporary, I mean standard for its time - it isn’t that rare or unusual for its time.
I believe people in general (not focusing this statement on you, Salsa) are too obsessed with "rarity". I would estimate that 97% of the clocks we see on these boards are not "rare" in any way. And many "rare" objects only have rarity as an attribute.

This is clearly a discussion and my opinion.
You are absolutely correct. I believe the theme of the responses to your statements is that it would be best to state that it is your opinion. :) Remember, you are not just answering the OP, but all the people in the future who read these threads.

a “standard” set by a “master”.
"Experts" are wrong also (probably more than they would like to admit), so their opinions are appreciated but their opinions (and, unfortunately, some of their facts) are also subject to healthy skepticism and analysis.

Regards.
 

new2clocks

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Most things are 'standard for their time' - you made things that people wanted, otherwise your business would have a very short life. Only very occasionally and in specific circumstances can something truly be described as 'ahead of its time'.
Very well stated and very true!

Regards.
 

wow

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Well, I got it back to the shop. Here are more photos of it in better light. These are “before” photos. I hope the “after” photos show a bit of improvement. Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate any suggestions you may offer.

7002732D-AE27-44CC-B09E-5CB3BD8FC561.jpeg 22A54FF1-56B2-4488-A4BC-E58A1B6923BD.jpeg 9C9C53EC-1619-48B2-80A0-D3EE73CD6B4C.jpeg 43B43CC4-D958-47F2-B4F8-5519480DB4AE.jpeg D61C8995-E403-401D-8B73-245A59AA1521.jpeg 124C4020-41B0-45C7-822A-EE46408C02D0.jpeg 8F1DFAD2-7634-4BBF-A70B-1550C41D5330.jpeg D3A7A61B-AFE4-4670-9361-B36D604C3505.jpeg
 
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Isaac

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Well, I got it back to the shop. Here are more photos of it in better light. These are “before” photos. I hope the “after” photos show a bit of improvement. Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate any suggestions you may offer.

View attachment 653384 View attachment 653385 View attachment 653386 View attachment 653387 View attachment 653388 View attachment 653389 View attachment 653390 View attachment 653391
Looks to be in pretty good condition. The case will pop back to life when it's cleaned up. No rust noticeable is a great sign and likely means that the movement won't have any corrosion related problems. One of the bell hammers is raised in the photo - could be that the clock isn't simply wound up or there could be some other issue with the control cams/levers or mainspring.

They are two steps up from German contemporary bracket clocks and one step up from a basic Winterhalder.
I'm not sure what you mean by this - Winterhalder and other high-end German companies also produced reproduction bracket clocks that had very robust triple fusee movements. Sure, it can be argued that all companies have an "Economic" line of clocks, but it's all in what the customer wants and is willing to pay for. The triple fusee W&H movements I've seen seem well-engineered all around - I don't seem to find any recurring faults in their movements.
 

Salsagev

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I'm not sure what you mean by this - Winterhalder and other high-end German companies also produced reproduction bracket clocks that had very robust triple fusee movements. Sure, it can be argued that all companies have an "Economic" line of clocks, but it's all in what the customer wants and is willing to pay for. The triple fusee W&H movements I've seen seem well-engineered all around - I don't seem to find any recurring faults in their movements.
I am referring to classes of clocks.



Here is an example that sold today very similar to yours with the 8 bells.
 
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Salsagev

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Most things are 'standard for their time' - you made things that people wanted, otherwise your business would have a very short life. Only very occasionally and in specific circumstances can something truly be described as 'ahead of its time'.
I am also referring to outliers for their period - this is not. However, this was made for the higher class of people.

To be clear, I am not depriving any merit from the clock. I am simply sharing my opinions. I do like the clock very much and it should be enjoyed regardless of value, if you were happy with what you payed for it.

Please enjoy the clock.
 

Salsagev

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Ah, understood!
My personal opinion of classifying chiming/striking bracket clocks.
(Lowest to highest)
Basic Westminster chimes on rods
Ting tangs on coiled gongs
Medium sized bracket clocks that chime on 5 coiled gongs.
Bracket clock that chimes on 8 bells.
Triple fusee clocks
Triple fusee clock on 5 gongs.
Triple fusee clock on 5 gongs and 8 bells.

The most highest, IMO, are revolution period English sonnerie bracket clocks.
 

novicetimekeeper

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revolution? when did we have one of those? We had a civil War, and a brief Republic, but they predated bracket clocks. ( Though Herbert Cesinsky says lantern clocks are the true bracket clocks)
 

wow

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Looks to be in pretty good condition. The case will pop back to life when it's cleaned up. No rust noticeable is a great sign and likely means that the movement won't have any corrosion related problems. One of the bell hammers is raised in the photo - could be that the clock isn't simply wound up or there could be some other issue with the control cams/levers or mainspring.



I'm not sure what you mean by this - Winterhalder and other high-end German companies also produced reproduction bracket clocks that had very robust triple fusee movements. Sure, it can be argued that all companies have an "Economic" line of clocks, but it's all in what the customer wants and is willing to pay for. The triple fusee W&H movements I've seen seem well-engineered all around - I don't seem to find any recurring faults in their movements.
Yes, Isaac, the chime train was hung up but I got it going with a little nudge. It’s been running and chiming all afternoon. No hour strike on gong. I’ll get back to it and get the gong going too. I, of course, plan a complete cleaning and polishing of the case and the movement. The only thing missing is the back door lock. I guess this one will end up in a prime spot in my den. I love the bracket being with it. Thanks for your comments.
Will
 

novicetimekeeper

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There was one, the so called 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688.
Ah yes, the invasion by invitation, when William of Orange landed at Brixham and followed up with the battle of Reading. More of a damp squib than a revolution perhaps, though it didn't do a great deal for Ireland. Busy Century the 17th, Rebellion, Civil war, Regicide, Republic, Restoration, Revolution.
 
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WIngraham

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Hey Will, that is a beautiful clock. The finish looks to be in great shape, very nice find, will sound great after you're done. I am still hunting for an overlooked one.

Will
 

novicetimekeeper

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And don't forget the plague and the Fire of London, but still found time amongst all the upheavals to make some glorious clocks and watches . . .
Ah yes, forgot those and I was already thinking how well they had done making clocks and watches during that time too. Mind you upheavals in mainland Europe and England contributed there too with the Huguenot input and the close relationship with the Netherlands. (Though as Fromanteel found you had to pick the right side.)
 

wow

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Hey Will, that is a beautiful clock. The finish looks to be in great shape, very nice find, will sound great after you're done. I am still hunting for an overlooked one.

Will
Thanks. I worked on this clock about 25 years ago and found out the owner was gonna sell it and his entire collection. I was able to get them all. Never thought I’d own one this nice. Movement is huge and heavy and dirty. Plan to get into it this week.

I’m enjoying the history lesson, by the way!
 
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Isaac

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Here it is with the first coat of dust removed.
It’s running, chiming, and sometimes strikes one on the hour. Haven’t touched the movement yet.

View attachment 653700
Looking real nice! Can't wait to see the rest of your progress.
 

wow

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Finally, I’m about to begin restoration on this one. I need suggestions.
I plan to remove the movement, clean it and check it out, polish pivots etc, as i do with others. I don’t expect to encounter many problems with that part, but any thoughts appreciated.
Where I’m not sure is the case. I plan to carefully remove all metal trim and clean it. I am not sure of the composition of the trim parts. Solid brass, brass/bronze combo, or other alloy? With the design of the trim, I am not sure what to clean/polish it with. Also, I want to clean the wooden case and polish it. What do you experts use? I usually use metal polish like Maas and liquid gold wood finish on most clocks but other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Will
 

bruce linde

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we’ll, you did say experts, but i like the way the case looks old and would suggest the non-abrasive gojo hand cleaner as a start. you can apply and rub w fingers, really control what’s happening, and do a couple of passes. then, a couple of rub and buffs w beeswax and it would gleam without looking new
 

DeanT

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Ah yes, forgot those and I was already thinking how well they had done making clocks and watches during that time too. Mind you upheavals in mainland Europe and England contributed there too with the Huguenot input and the close relationship with the Netherlands. (Though as Fromanteel found you had to pick the right side.)
Not to mention the 30 year war from 1618 to 1648 that decimated Augsburg clockmaking which was the centre of the clockmaking universe at this time. This war killed between 4.5 to 8m people and up to 60% of the population in some areas of Germany. The population of Augsburg itself which was under siege for much of this time fell from 48,000 to 21,000. I'd guess this provided opportunity for the previously underperforming English clockmaking industry which they grasped with both hands.....
 
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novicetimekeeper

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Not to mention the 30 year war from 1618 to 1648 that decimated Augsburg clockmaking which was the centre of the clockmaking universe at this time. This war killed between 4.5 to 8m people and up to 60% of the population in some areas of Germany. The population of Augsburg itself which was under siege for much of this time fell from 48,000 to 21,000. I'd guess this provided opportunity for the previously underperforming English clockmaking industry which they grasped with both hands.....

We had a rather more welcoming approach to immigration then.
 

wow

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we’ll, you did say experts, but i like the way the case looks old and would suggest the non-abrasive gojo hand cleaner as a start. you can apply and rub w fingers, really control what’s happening, and do a couple of passes. then, a couple of rub and buffs w beeswax and it would gleam without looking new
Thanks, Bruce. I took a piece of the trim off the bracket (shelf) and found it is solid brass. Cleaned it up with Maas metal polish and it looks pretty good. I plan to use your method with the gojo and beeswax on the bracket first before trying it on the clock. I’ll report back.

6F04C905-8A02-41B4-A369-17C5AB1AD5E3.jpeg 115EA527-7DF7-4B39-BEA0-C49A8BDA8137.jpeg
 

bruce linde

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just to clarify... i'm recommending the gojo and beeswax for the wood case.... the clock is going to be (even more) gorgeous by the time you're done with it.
 

bruce linde

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what do you think? it looks great to me, but you make the call. :)
 

wow

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Finally took the movement out. Someone had epoxied the hour hand to the tube. Finally got it off so I could get the movement out. I found a name on the front of the movement. “A. Ingram”. Mean anything to anybody? Here are photos:

F4A07CB3-50FA-4363-9558-CC3E62EF0E38.jpeg 63C58925-7C63-4A30-99E4-4466FB10D0B4.jpeg 051D8F6F-99BA-4B9D-9365-576A84BD7BA6.jpeg F81F5C4A-7E16-4158-B11A-E469BFF38E67.jpeg 948F1C97-DB75-479E-BAB0-8C5117332708.jpeg 87BDCCFB-26E7-468D-AD7E-A025C2F3BAEA.jpeg A741BFAB-42C7-4A65-888C-BC1B38637430.jpeg
 
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wow

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Will,

Off topic, but how are you doing with Hurricane Ida?

Regards.
Thanks for asking. We are in central Louisiana and are just getting our first wind gusts. We don’t expect much over 30-40 mph wind and lots of rain. I have relatives in Baton Rouge who decided to ride it out rather than coming here with us. I’m concerned about them. We are fine right now. Have my generator ready and window unit a/c’s ready just in case.
 
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wow

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Here’s my progress on the case. I researched “ A. Ingram” and found mention on one thread. I need you experts evidently. Anybody know anything?

81F80522-8F98-493F-A597-06D41FA58552.jpeg D702FED0-423D-4D64-B35E-0E4F0804A03F.jpeg 80BB4CCE-153E-4438-B0CC-CADBF2D1541F.jpeg
 
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zedric

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Here’s my progress on the case. I researched “ A. Ingram” and found mention on one thread. I need you experts evidently. Anybody know anything?
case has come up very well…
 

wow

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What did you find and where?

JTD
I searched “A Ingram” on this message board and found two threads about English clocks made by A Ingram. Very little info there. Google also gave little results. I have limited experience researching, though. Any help appreciated.
 

JTD

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I searched “A Ingram” on this message board and found two threads about English clocks made by A Ingram. Very little info there. Google also gave little results. I have limited experience researching, though. Any help appreciated.
I did my best to research a little on this name. I agree that it is difficult to find much on A. Ingram on the net, not least because a lot of posts using the word Ingram are from people who miss-spell the word Ingraham and are dealing with an entirely different firm altogether!

I think it is possible that the A. Ingram mentioned in the clip you posted may be the one associated with your clock but I don't think we can say that it has been definitely proven.

If I find anything else, I will be sure to report.

JTD
 

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