American Canadian Ellis Brothers Grandfather Clocks, connection to Herschede?

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by rhapsody, Jul 2, 2018.

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  1. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

    Jun 11, 2018
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    Were herschede movements themsleves ever sold to other makers in the early part of the 20th century?

    I've come across a 9 tube version that looks very similar (at least movement wise) to a herschede movement.

    Anyone familiar with Ellis brothers?

    ellis-bros-antique-mahogany-column-front-9-tube-grandfather-clock-6763.jpg
     
  2. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Some complete Herschede mantel clocks were sold under the Kuehl label during the 1920's-1930's. Besides some Colonial Mfg. hall clocks that utilized Herschede movements, I don't know of Herschede leasing out movements to other firms.
     
  3. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #3 brian fisher, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    well, I would say that in my experience, pretty much all tubular hall clock movements are about 90% the same no matter who made them. to me, I think this movement looks a little more Winterhalder than Herschede. there were also a handful of obscure manufacturers out there such as the Grand Rapids clock co., etc. perhaps this is one of those odd companies with little history.

    one thing about this clock that I do see which is uncommon, is the tooled finish on the back of the face plate. usually that wasn't intended to show and was normally left in raw brass.

    with that said, Herschede did sell movements to other clock manufacturers. My Herscede friend has told me time and again that pretty much all those manufacturers in those days were "in cahoots".

    especially in the later years, they were the mechanicals in the highest end Sleigh and Howard miller clocks. they didn't have the herschede name on them, but there was no mistaking where they came from.

    the painted model number on the back of the cabinet looks more like a Colonial trait to me from the 20's or early 30's era. this time period would have been the heyday for tubular bell hall clocks as perhaps most early examples would have come from this period.

    more pictures of the dial face would help. (most of these would have had some sort of insignia between the moon dial and the 12.) so would a frontal and straight on rear view pic of the movement. do the tubes have anything stamped on them?
     
  4. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    I agree with brian… It looks like a colonial. There should be an engraved makers mark on the bottom center of the back plate ... seeing that and the crutch assembly might help identify
     
  5. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    Wow... so fascinating. Thank you.
    The tubes don't have anything I can make out oddly.

    I can get one of the dial... should be attached.

    ellis-bros-antique-mahogany-column-front-9-tube-grandfather-clock-9767.jpg
     
  6. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    this next photo is the back of a different clock. Any idea of age / based on the lettering / style font used? Its a herschede I believe from the early part of the 20th century.

    20180702_082107.jpg
     
  7. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Hans Winterhalder's mark can be easily seen on the moon dial support. The usage of the Winchester chime is also common of Colonial products.
     
  8. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    #8 brian fisher, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
    yes, Justin is absolutely correct. this is a Hans winterhalder movement.

    the "HWN" as seen above the 12 would normally (but not always) be engraved or stamped in the back movement plate toward the bottom middle.

    your clock is 20's to early 30's. I don't believe there are any records for winterhalder serial numbers.

    the numbers you posted above I am pretty sure are not from a herschede clock.
     
  9. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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  10. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    Thank you.
     
  11. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    Thank you for sharing that. It seems then the first clock I posted about is a Hans Winterhalder movement based clock.

    Speaking about the second clock (which is only the back of it)...

    Let me re-post.

    This is back from an alleged herschede clock from 1918. This is not the same clock I started this thread about, but was asking about for comparison.

    20180702_082107.jpg
     
  12. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    Here is a photo of the dial (again different clock than the Hans-Winterhalder).

    It appears to have the herschede mark -- crown like symbol on the dial.
    I'll try to get better photos... Maybe a delay on that.

    Note: The dial also mentions another company in the lower part--- above 6. Something " Wattles & Sons.. Pittsburgh". not sure that's wattles... can't make it out.

    I'm really perplexed... is this a clock then a cabinet made by someone else and a herschede movement? or perhaps a case where Herschede made the clock but was alos sticking a local jeweler's or someone else's name on it for retail purposes?

    s-l1600.jpg
     
  13. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Some Herschede clocks were sold by jewelers or retailers who would put their own name on the clock. The clock with the crown symbol on the dial looks like a Herschede although a photo of the entire case may help us identify whether or not the case is a Herschede pattern.
     
  14. rhapsody

    rhapsody Registered User

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    I will work on getting more photos of it, since its not in my possession.

    I wasn't aware of Herschede doing that. Particuarly in the 1915-1920 era. But then again I am a newbie to this.
     

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