Ellicott 3rd wheel center seconds movement

[On_the_verge]

Hello!

Some time ago I acquired this movement along with four mid 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century English levers at a very reasonable price, i think most prospective bidders got thrown off by the later misspelled dial. Sadly the cap was discarded when the movement was re-cased and the cap posts replaced with screws.

Since there is a lack of pictures of Ellicotts center seconds work online I thought I would post some here for anyone who is interested.

The c-seconds hand is mounted directly on the third wheel instead of a separate wheel driven by a second pinion on the escape wheel (Grahams design).

Note that the escape wheel is of the Swiss/continental type and the use of tiny “steel cockerels” instead of blind holes or cap stones is not something I have seen on an English watch. The reason for this is that Ellicott used continental eubaches and/or employed Swiss workers in England.

More information or pictures of other types of motion work / similar watches would be highly appreciated

Regards Erik

 

[gmorse]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for posting these pictures, it's a centre seconds system that isn't seen so often as the George Graham design, and supposedly produces a smoother movement of the seconds hand. Have you noticed this in your watch?

Note that the escape wheel is of the Swiss/continental type and the use of tiny “steel cockerels” instead of blind holes or cap stones is not something I have seen on an English watch. The reason for this is that Ellicott used continental eubaches and/or employed Swiss workers in England.

Indeed it is in a Swiss style, but can you tell me where you find the assertion that John Ellicott junior used Swiss frames please? I've read through David Thompson's two AH Autumn 1997 articles on the family and also the one by R.K. Foulkes in the December 1960 AH, and I can find no reference to this.

That steel coqueret on the escape wheel pivot looks to me like a later addition.

Regards,

Graham

 

[On_the_verge]

Thanks for your reply!

Sadly the hands are missing so i will have to make new beetle and poker + c-seconds hands myself when i find a new case.

A theory: Since Ellicotts system works on the 3rd wheel it will be under constant pressure compared to grahams system where the c-seconds wheel could move a small distance between impulses due to backlash. This small movement would then be amplified by the long seconds hand leading to a slight wobble.

I got the part about Swiss workers/ eubaches from David Penney and reading the AHS journal summer 1997, after reading it again i think the framing in the journal is more ambiguous.

"It has been suggested that Ellicott watch movements were made in Switzerland and certainly many of the cylinder watches contain escape wheels of a design normally associated with Swiss practice. It is equally possible, however that Ellicotts where employing out-workers in the City and in Clerkenwell and that these cylinder wheels where actually made by escapement makers who had for one reason or another adopted the Continental style of wheel." - Page 312 vol 23 no 04 AHS journal

ELLICOTE, London. No 513671 - David Penney's Antique Watch Store

A most interesting English made centre-seconds movement, circa 1770.

antiquewatchstore.com

Regards Erik

 

[gmorse]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for your reply!

Sadly the hands are missing so i will have to make new beetle and poker + c-seconds hands myself when i find a new case.

A theory: Since Ellicotts system works on the 3rd wheel it will be under constant pressure compared to grahams system where the c-seconds wheel could move a small distance between impulses due to backlash. This small movement would then be amplified by the long seconds hand leading to a slight wobble.

I got the part about Swiss workers/ eubaches from David Penney and reading the AHS journal summer 1997, after reading it again i think the framing in the journal is more ambiguous.

"It has been suggested that Ellicott watch movements were made in Switzerland and certainly many of the cylinder watches contain escape wheels of a design normally associated with Swiss practice. It is equally possible, however that Ellicotts where employing out-workers in the City and in Clerkenwell and that these cylinder wheels where actually made by escapement makers who had for one reason or another adopted the Continental style of wheel." - Page 312 vol 23 no 04 AHS journal

ELLICOTE, London. No 513671 - David Penney's Antique Watch Store

A most interesting English made centre-seconds movement, circa 1770.

antiquewatchstore.com

Regards Erik

Thanks for clarifying.

The Graham pattern centre seconds cylinder I've worked on didn't show too much backlash, so I wonder if it was that much of a problem.

I agree that David Thompson's wording in that article is rather ambiguous, but the most puzzling thing about your watch is the dial signature, which apart from being mis-spelt, doesn't look quite right for an English centre seconds dial, so perhaps it's a later replacement, because the rest of the movement is plausibly by John Ellicott, who I don't believe would have approved of that dial.

This is the dial from a cylinder movement made around 1780 by John Starey and the George Graham type under dial work.



Regards,

Graham

 

[On_the_verge]

Great pictures!

The level of finish and attention to detail on top quality London work mid to late 18th century is really outstanding, engraving and dial making really reached its peak during that era.

The dial on my movement is definitely a replacement as the dial plate has three unused holes where the old dial sat.
I hope whoever paid for the "upgrade" got a discount for the misspelled dial .

Regards Erik

 

[gmorse]

Hi Erik,

The hands as received were in a sad state:



The new parts of the hour hand and the pointer half of the seconds hand were laser welded to their bosses.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

These photographs are of a small diameter (35mm.) centre second cylinder fusee movement. It has the same mechanism as the initial post with the centre second hand driven from the third wheel. Unfortunately, I do not have a photograph of the mechanism under the dial that I am able to post.



The signature is that of William Allam, CC 1843-1885 and it is believed the movement dates from ~1760 when he was possibly working in Fleet Street (he is known to have been at 175 Fleet Street in 1770). The movement was in the Nelthropp collection and then in the CC collection (see item 323 in Clutton & Daniel's catalogue p.44) before being sold at Sotheby's as Lot 46 in December 1981.



The dial is original and well-preserved. It only has a faint hairline and very minimal damage to the rim. The beetle and poker hands are also original and, although I am not certain concerning the originality of the polished steel seconds hand, I understand it is in a style used by Justin Vulliamy. I would be grateful for confirmation of this.



The 13 tooth brass escape is in the English style. The balance brake now acts on the fourth wheel, but I believe it originally acted on the cylinder.



The cap is stamped LxR (possibly IxR – it is open to interpretation! This is a mark that is known to me on numerous caps of well-finished London movements. However, all the other examples that I have seen are post 1820. I had previously thought it might have been the mark of John Rowlands who operated as a cap maker in Clerkenwell between 1820 and 1840. The cap is a perfect fit, but does not carry Allam's signature. In the absence of similarly marked caps from the time of this movement, I tentatively believe that it might be a replacement cap.



Working strongly with the centre seconds hand rotating smoothly as suggested by Graham.The movement is in need of a service.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

although I am not certain concerning the originality of the polished steel seconds hand, I understand it is in a style used by Justin Vulliamy. I would be grateful for confirmation of this.

Neither am I, it looks very flat in comparison to the other hands, but I don't know whether Justin or any other member of the family used it in prefernce to the more usual style to match the beetle and poker. Centre seconds were certainly rare anyway, so it could be hard to find examples for comparison.

I've seen a Graham type centre seconds by Thomas Wright at the Poultry which is almost identical to the example I posted earlier.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Graham - just found this ...



John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

There's quite a difference in the quality of that seconds hand; it's very fine, but the Allam does echo the style if not the refinement!

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Agreed - but look it this way, I saved myself >£68,000

John