Elgin Raymond

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by f2shooter, Mar 27, 2017.

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  1. f2shooter

    f2shooter Registered User

    Nov 26, 2016
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    Evening all,

    I'm having a withdrawal problem I guess. After I purchased my second Waltham a month or so ago and sent it out for some work I've found several more pocket watches from the same source. What has got my interest this time is an Eglin Raymond Model 5. There are two but the one I am considering is has regular numbers on it instead of Roman numerals. I haven't seen this one but looked on the auction site to see what it was. Looks nice to me. If it is in good condition is there anything I should know about Raymonds? Although it is being sold by a store I've been able to talk to the owner who seems quite knowledgable on the topic. Anyway unless something goes wrong I hope to have it in hand in a week or so and will post photos of it. Thanks!

    Rick H.
     
  2. RON in PA

    RON in PA Registered User
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    #2 RON in PA, Mar 27, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    Properly B. W. Raymond. They were Elgin's railroad grade watches (along with the Veritas and Father Time) made in size 18 and 16 in many models from the 1860s until the 1950s.
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    Jan 12, 2017
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    #3 musicguy, Mar 27, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    Rick H.:

    I currently wear a 1928 Grade 478 21j B W Raymond as
    my daily carry watch. I attached a photo below. The case is
    very worn, but the watch keeps RR time, and has been a very
    reliable everyday carry watch.

    As you may know (and as said above)
    Elgin made the B W Raymond for about 100 years. There is quite a
    difference between the early ones and later ones.
    As a bad comparison I'll use the Volkswagen Beetle.
    They made the the first Volkswagen Beetle in 1938 and they are very different
    from the Volkswagen Beetle made in 2003.(after that came the Volkswagen New Beetle)

    The difference is that the Elgin B W Raymond was always a
    quality watch in the Elgin line up. It was Elgin's best
    watch in their early years(mid 19th century) and also in their late years(mid 20th century).

    What is the serial number of the watch you are looking at?




    Rob
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Below is an excerpt from "The Watch Factories of American - Past and Present - 1888

    Robert
     

    Attached Files:

  5. f2shooter

    f2shooter Registered User

    Nov 26, 2016
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    I don't know the serial number at the moment put will list it here when I get it along with some photos. I am going to ask the seller to wind it and run it for 24 hours and make sure it runs more or less accurately. I expect it to need service or at least I'll want to have that done so I know it has been serviced for regular use. I'd like to have something like this for everyday use. It's fascinating to me all the knowledge that's out there based on these watches and I appreciate seeing it here.

    Rick H.
     
  6. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    **edit**

    Sounds good.

    Rob
     
  7. f2shooter

    f2shooter Registered User

    Nov 26, 2016
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    [​IMG][​IMG]It finally arrived today and I am very pleased so far having had it for nearly 2 hours. At least it is keeping accurate time staying within 5 seconds of my Seiko digital which is where it started. Serial number is 3661391 and is said to be manufactured in 1890. The case claims to be an Illinois Watchcase Co. Spartan. It has the letter P engraved on the back. It is adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions. The last two of those, I have no idea. I really have to get the book recommended to me. I like it and plan to use it regularly until another returns from service and then I'll wear both alternately. My first Waltham has such a nice clean appearance I'll reserve it for those times when I am not out in wilds. No telling what I'll find next but the consignment store tells me the same collector has several more up for sale now. I'm told one of them is a key wind. Hhhmmm....Photos attached I hope.

    Rick H.
     
  8. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    #8 musicguy, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
    Nice open face watch. Can you post a photo
    of the inside?

    Isochronism: "refers to the tendency of a watch to run at different rates when under different amounts of spring tension"
    (as the main spring unwinds)

    Adjustment to Position: "This is adjustment to maintain the same rate of balance (wheel) oscillation, regardless of which of the specified positions the watch is in"

    Watch Adjustment


    Rob
     
  9. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
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    Dec 9, 2000
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    For collector authenticity--the case is a modern replacement base metal case. The dial has been replaced. On a 3 million BWR the dial should be a glass enamel double sunk roman dial with the name "Elgin national Watch Company.

    This watch would have been adjusted to temperature only.

    Tom
     
  10. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Tom:

    The serial number is 3661391, making it a grade No. 116, built around 1889. Do you a reference for it only having been adjusted to temperature?

    My understanding, based on Greg Frauenhoff's description of a J T Scott & Co. catalog, April 1, 1876 (reported by Greg in a post "Adjusted or not?" October 25, 2006 - which for some reason I'm unable to locate), was that once Elgin added a patent regulator to the B.W. Raymond, it was adjusted to positions (retroactively described by Elgin as 2 positions). I believe that the catalog stated:

    No. 1 BWR .. Adjusted, patent regulator ........ $67.50
    No. 2 BWR .. Adjusted ................................ $60.00

    The $7.50 adder seems pretty steep just for the addition of a patent regulator.
     
  11. f2shooter

    f2shooter Registered User

    Nov 26, 2016
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    I don't know why I didn't make that photo of the inside yesterday but here it is now. I have a pretty extensive technical background in many areas but I must say this is not one. It clearly has its own vocabulary and the technical terms are kicking my butt. I appreciate the references I've received here. I wound this watch fully yesterday about 1:30 and it is still running quite accurately down to the seconds about 27 hours later. I'm liking this one very much and will begin carrying it in a day or so. It's interesting all the changes and repairs/replacements that have been made. To be expected over 120 or so years but so much is simply tossed aside today that to find something that continues to be maintained is refreshing. I've been drifting back to old school in many areas, photography among them. While I'll keep the modern things I'm truly enjoying old Nikons, old Chevys and now old watches.

    Rick H.[​IMG]
     
  12. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
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    Dec 9, 2000
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    Hi Kent, No, I don't have a written reference. I actually thought that was a fact you had told me, but obviously I am wrong. Mea Culpa.

    Tom
     
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