(Elgin) Private Label Research

[musicguy]

Elgin Duchess.

Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Cool! What kind of dial?

 

[musicguy]

Regular Elgin dial

Maybe it was a grade name not a Private Label. One that didn't make it.
I would say it was a scarce variation if it were a grade. I have only seen very
few of them. Found it in my movement pile.

Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

I think it was a private label made for this company.

I can't for the life of me figure out this signature to research the company. Have a a bit of time into it today, figured it was time to ask for help deciphering it.

Rob has the Duchess here, anyone have the Empress?

The Jewelers' Circular and Horological Review

books.google.com

The Jewelers' Circular and Horological Review

books.google.com

The Jewelers' Circular and Horological Review

books.google.com

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

I show a C. G. Alford & Co at 192 Broadway in 1922. Specializing in watches, jewelry and diamonds. (From the Jeweler's Index - 1922.)

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

From the Jeweler's Circular February 5, 1919...

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Very nice Dave, thank you!

I think we nailed this one down.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

The links I posted above are not shooting you directly to the ads , so here they are in the same order as the links.



Here is the priscilla, matching descriptions above.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/lovely-ladies-american.165685/post-1333662

And here is penelope

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/interesting-two-tone-o-size-model-91.169167/post-1365266

Just missing empress!

 

[musicguy]

Here is the priscilla, matching descriptions above.
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/lovely-ladies-american.165685/post-1333662

And here is penelope
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/interesting-two-tone-o-size-model-91.169167/post-1365266

Just missing empress!

Nice work Rick!


Rob

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

I recently showed this watch in the "latest additions" thread, but I am showing it again because it is an unusual Elgin PL: an 18k open face Jeannot & Shiebler-cased Elgin Grade 72 21j "convertible" that is a triple-signed Bailey, Banks & Biddle PL. Only about 450 Grade 72 were made; very few of them were private labelled.





I think the movement will glisten once I get it cleaned.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Elgin #488112
17s, model 1, grade 59
Movement marked for Kennedy & Co, unsunk dial marked Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. Elgin N.W.Co. coin silver case.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/kennedy-co-pittsburgh-pa-elgin-p-l.176136/post-1432913

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

76570
National watch Co, 10s, Lady Elgin model 3.
Movement and dial marked "California Lady"



Wonderful dial and hands. Movement is also in great condition. This is another set of labels that have been the focus of research for a while now. I don't believe they are private labels in the normal sense. Once a little more information is pulled together an article will be written up. I will say that there are 4 grades. Here are what they correspond to.
Pacific Watch is HH Taylor
California Watch is G.M. Wheeler
San Fransisco Watch is M.D. Ogden
California Lady is Lady Elgin

The California Lady is 10s so is only available in Key wind, but I've seen California and San Fransisco as key or stem. The Pacific I've seen as keywind, and think it was also available as stem wind but can not confirm.

Westward the star of empire!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

At least one ad should be shown I suppose. Another of my favorite slogans, A Western Watch For Western Men!

After the transcontinental railroad was completed, goods could be readily shipped to the coast for much cheaper than before, and many companies took advantage of the hoards of settlers and fortune seekers now identifying themselves as westerners. National watch Co was no different.

This is courtesy of the library of Congress. Gold Hill is a hop and a skip from Virginia City and the Comstock Lode. Marketing at its finest!

This advertisement is from 1875.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

One more post for you tonight. A pair of grade 177 Elgin, 6s movements.

Atlas Watch Co # 7105695


Sun-Dial # 7582237


None of these are uncommon by any means, but in regards to themselves, the Arabic dials are harder to find than Roman. There are a wide range of variation to these. 18s model 4 and 5, 6s open-faced and hunter, and all can be Roman & Arabic. The most difficult to find from my observations are the 6 size open-faced which are the same movements as shown above with conversion dials less seconds bit. They are a fun bunch to keep an eye on. Couldn't pass up these two nice running movements for what I paid. Not sure if I'll clean, lube and case them.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Here is a 16s model 6 for J.S. Barnard of London, Ontario.

Grade 312, 15 jewels.
Nice signed dial


I have a decent hunting case that needs a little work and a tenant. This was just about perfect for it.

Since he is from Canada, most of my usual resourses are not much help. Because of this it's hard to really sum up Mr. Barnard better than this article from the Archives at Whitby Public Library

John S. Barnard, 1892

A black and white portrait photograph of John S. Barnard (1856-1934). This picture is from a frame of portraits of member of Composite Lodge No. 30, AF & AM.

vitacollections.ca

The photo here is courtesy of the same web page, no copyright.


I'll be honest... I saw London and thought it was neat to find a later (1908) signed Elgin movement and dial from "across the pond". I quickly learned it was "across the lake" instead! A little under 6 hour drive from the burgh. Pretty neat.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Elgin #4861395. 1893ish
Grade 107, 16s model 5

W.F. Newhall of Lynn, Massachusetts

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

6192902 - Grade 169, 15 jewels, for Howard Williams of Delavan, Wisconsin.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

MOOO!!!
11739637. 6s. Grade 286 from 1905ish
Dial signed for St. Charles Cream

 

[musicguy]

I've always wanted one of those!

Nice!


Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Thanks!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

So.. I had dreams of bringing this back to its former glory... but unfortunately at this stage, its just a data point. A very interesting data point.

367022 12 Size, model 1, grade 24.
It is 7 jewels with a gold balance wheel.

The movement is private labeled for John Rossiter of Weston-Super-Mare

I cant give you a better history than their own website. The company is still going strong and despite my attempts there has been no reply. I guess if I had some goofy American email me about an old beat up watch movement sold 145 years ago... well.. its not exactly a priority i'm sure.

OUR HERITAGE | rossiter-and-sons

www.rossiter-and-sons.com

I included the photo of the balance and escapement to show the gold balance. Also the escape wheel and pallet, actually the whole train, is exactly the same as a 10s. Yes, it was tried on a 10s parts movement just to check. In fact the 4th wheel and pinion in this watch now comes from that 10S movement. It was exactly the same in fit and finish. If nothing else, I hope you enjoy the chance to see under the dial and the escapement of a lesser common early Elgin movement.

 

[musicguy]

Cha Krauss Chicago circa 1872 18 size M. D. Ogden grade gilded slow train (4.5 bps)
I believe Charles was a Pawn broker.

The movement has a very interesting No 6 marking something I have never seen.

MD OGDEN Curtesy of the PWD
Elgin National Watch Co. Research: Elgin M D Ogden Grades | Pocket Watch Database

Rob

 

[musicguy]

I haven't done any work on the PL above it's just sitting
looking nice right now(and running well), but I was looking at the photo and
the rounded head screw on the barrel bridge
just stood out to me like a sore thumb and I had somehow missed
it before. These Ogden's should only have flat head screws. So,
I found a correct blued flat head screw (from the same time period)
in my pile from a Chas Fargo and replaced it. It looks right now.






Rob

 

[Jerry Treiman]

367022 12 Size, model 1, grade 24.
It is 7 jewels with a gold balance wheel.

It is interesting that this has a gold balance wheel which is atypical for the grade. I have two examples from this run (one only ten numbers away from yours) and both have the expected solid steel balance wheel. Perhaps the gold wheel was a special request to go along with the private label?

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

That is quite possible, Jerry. The gold balance wheels seemed popular in G.B. at the time. I can put it under the scope and maybe see if it is plated or actual gold.

 

[musicguy]

Elgin 18s grade 12 circa 1873 gilded slow train (4.5 bps) 11j
B H Broer, Toledo Ohio, 3 oz coin case

Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

30025
H.H. Taylor, keywind.
H.S. Abbey of Akron Ohio marked on movement and dial!




Henry Stephen Abbey was born November 5th 1808 and died from heart disease on October 25 1873. In the 1850 census he is listed as a silversmith.

His actual jewelery store, named H.S. Abbey & Co, is a partnership with a Mr. Hart. It was in business from 1868 to his death in 1873. This is a very short time, and you can see an announcement of his opening here from March 5th, 1868. H.S. Abbey & Co..
The store was located at 120 Howard St. I'm having a hard time pinpointing the address on an 1874 map, but it looks like a good location on the NW edge of the first Ward.

There is a drawing of Mr. Abbey here.

Henry Stephen Abbey (1808-1873) - Find a Grave...

From the book published in 1916 Abbe -Abbey Genealogy In Memory of John Abbe and his Descendants by Cleveland Abbe and Joseph Genung Nichols: HENRY STEPHEN ABBEY, son of Benjamin and Lois (Stocking) Abbey(*sic - see note below), born in Portland, Conn., November 5, 1808; died in Akron, Ohio...

www.findagrave.com

This watch is super interesting because it marks some of the earliest movement marked private labels. The National Watch Co blocked out serial numbers starting at 30,000, and here we see.many small runs of various grades of P.L. It looks like they pulled and finished these watches as needed.

The serial number and engraving on this movement suggests that this would be a very early H.H. Taylor. The lowest S.N. for Taylor is a run of only 100 movements starting at 25,001. I've not seen one from this run, but would expect H.H. Taylor marked movements from looking at production trends (Elgin never fails to surprise, though). The run of 10 movements that the watch comes from is the second run of only ten serial numbers. Their early method seems to employ separate groups of serial numbers for regular and P.L. movements that ran concurrently. The first major run of H.H. Taylor marked movements (900) begins at 31,101

The little WCo logo on the barrel bridge is also interesting. Maybe "watch co" ? H.S. Abbey Watch Co? I haven't been able to find anything to link that together.

It is exciting for me, not only be able to get an observation of this small run, but to own the watch as well. I'm quite happy with it.

 

[musicguy]

Nice!!! I'm glad you went for it.

Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Thanks to Nathan Moore the monogram on the barrel bridge of 30025 is identified. It is the National Watch Co logo. Same one seen on the 10s dials. Thank you!!!



I am a wee bit embarrassed that I overlooked this!

 

[musicguy]

All I can say is that we MUST be watch nerds, love it.
I did see it when it was for sale but didn't think too much about it.
It would seem to make sense that Elgin would like to mark a double signed PL
somehow discreetly.


Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Elgin battled against fakes from early on. This monogram could have been an idea that just didn't stick with the 18s. Later movements had "Manfd Elgin Ills" on the barrel bridge, with the jewelers location on the top plate.

30158 has nothing engraved on it to show it was from Elgin, but it has a National dial.

This is a snipit from an ad in the NY daily tribune, August 26th 1868:


The Company have six styles now in market, bearing the following trade marks on upper plate of movement:

B. W. RAYMOND,
H. Z. CULVER,
CULVER,
G. M. WHEELER,
MAT. LAFLIN,
J. T. RYERSON,

ELGIN, ILLINOIS,

With National Watch Co. on the Dial.


The trade are cautioned against purchasing worthless imatations of these movements, which have been recently placed is market, bearing the fictitious names, "Chicago Watch Co.," "Chicago Watch," and "National Watch Co., New-York," with the intention, on the part of dishonorable manufacturers, of injuring the reputation of the Elgin goods


So Elgin made a point of properly marking their movements for identification so that they could not be confused with the fakes. Even early on. They even went as far as to trademark "National Watch Co", "Chicago watch co" and "the Chicago watch" in 1873 to try to protect themselves.

Where is HHT in this article? Just... Thinking out loud... Haha.

 

[musicguy]

The trade are cautioned against purchasing worthless imitations of these movements, which have been recently placed is market, bearing the fictitious names, "Chicago Watch Co.," "Chicago Watch," and "National Watch Co., New-York," with the intention, on the part of dishonorable manufacturers, of injuring the reputation of the Elgin goods

Those evil Swiss Fakes


Rob

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

The trade are cautioned against purchasing worthless imatations of these movements

An example of an early fake. I'm not sure the average buyer, confronted with only the movement on the right, would know that it was a fake.

 

[musicguy]

yikes I haven't seen too many like that!


Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

That is, by far, the best imitation. They even did the hairspring stud, which is usually just a pressed in pin on these. Great watch, Dave.

Like I said before... Barrel bridge gives it away every time. Haha.

But no, the average person wouldn't have a clue!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

10805085 is a nice 0 sized 15 jewel movement marked Standard for Mermod Jaccard. The dial is also signed.

Don't be too upset about the wrist case in the pocket forum. It is a large white gold filled Brooklyn that needed a new tenant. Mermod Jaccard just happened to fit the parameters in the search!

 

[musicguy]

Rovelstad Bros, Elgin Ill
Rovelstad Grade Johan Sverdrup
Elgin grade 44 (sometimes marked GMW) circa 1894-5








Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Nice, yours is the 17 jewel version, too!

These are neat. Must have been a large company. We have these Johan's observed as grade 81(kw) and 82(hunting gilt), 44(O.F. nickel) and 103(hunting nickel).

They are all of similar quality in the lineup. Full jeweled for the time, Moseley regulators.. Rovelstad signed dials.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

246045 is a Mat Laflin grade
John Mitsch, Allegheny Pa.
National Dial

It's had a little bit of a rough life, but I'll put it with with other Pittsburgh watches and all is well. It does live in a nice 4 oz Waltham coin case.

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

National Watch Co #30,050
G.M. Wheeler grade
A nice early P.L. from the company that comes from a small run of 20 movements. Private labels start at 30,001.



Movement marked for Fix & Connor out of Burlington Iowa.

Fix & Connor originally located at 39 Jefferson St. Established in 1866. Mr. Fix left the partnership in 1880. M.C. Connors continued the business untill his death in 1905. The business was a full service jeweler, watchmaker etc.

In "The Railroad Trainmen" 1903, Connors is also listed as a watch inspector.

After Mr. Fix left, a young man named Edward Rapp joined the firm as an employee. He originally worked next door and learned the jewelery business with the Carpenters, the oldest jewelery firm in Burlington. Mr. Rapp worked with Connors for many years, and in 1905 when MC Connors passed away, he took over the company. I followed Rapp untill 1919 and haven't looked any further. Edwards son, Hubert, was also jeweler at the store so the business may have continued for many years.



The coin silver case is signed "Carpenters Burlington Iowa"


Carpenters jewelery store was established in 1837 by A.W. Carpenter. A.W. passed away in 1869 and his brother G.P.B. Carpenter and nephew E.H. Carpenter continued the business. In 1880 G.P.B. passed away leaving E.H. as the sole owner of the business untill bringing in his son around the turn of the century. From what I can tell it was the oldest and most well established jewelery buisness in Burlington.

Similar to Mr. Edward Rapps story above, but reversing the companies... a man named C.E. Gerling started with M.C. Connors and learned the jewelery trade. In 1884 he moved to Carpenters where he continued to learn the trade, became an optometrist for the firm and eventually purchased Carpenters store in 1913, right before E.H. Carpenters death.

As stated already, the stores of M.C. Connors and E.H. Carpenter were practically side by side. How the movement ended up in this case...who knows. Maybe Connors needed some cases and bought them next door... Maybe the original purchaser of the watch found the best deal on a movement and case in the different stores. Maybe someone found both pieces at an NAWCC mart last year and slapped them together. I'll never know, but it all looks original enough to me. The companies shared employees back and forth, I'm sure they helped each other out in different ways.

For more Connors viewing pleasure:


Bila found a neat case for "Fix and Connors".

Case Info Needed??????

Does someone know of a Jeweler/Watchmaker/Case-makers named Fix & Connor that might of been around in the early to late 1870's approximately? I have a case with their name and with what appears to be an Eagle with a Shield in it's claws, curvette of the case is also engraved with their name as...

mb.nawcc.org

Here is an early Hamilton posted by Jeff Hess for M.C. Connor

Hamilton Private Labels, Please add to the list

Needs a little cleanup and TLC, bit one of my favorite private labels.

mb.nawcc.org