(Elgin) Private Label Research

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country
Elgin Duchess.

1608904429688.png



Rob
 

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country
Regular Elgin dial

Maybe it was a grade name not a Private Label. One that didn't make it.
I would say it was a scarce variation if it were a grade.
I have only seen very
few of them. Found it in my movement pile.

Rob
 
Last edited:

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
  • Like
Reactions: musicguy

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bila

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Hufnagel

Ethan Lipsig

NAWCC Gold Member
Jan 8, 2006
2,525
2,461
113
72
Pasadena
Country
Region
I recently showed this watch in the "latest additions" thread, but I am showing it again because it is an unusual Elgin PL: an 18k open face Jeannot & Shiebler-cased Elgin Grade 72 21j "convertible" that is a triple-signed Bailey, Banks & Biddle PL. Only about 450 Grade 72 were made; very few of them were private labelled.

DSC07088 (928x1280).jpg DSC07093 (1006x1280).jpg DSC07095 (1280x1058).jpg

DSC07097 (1280x1154).jpg DSC07098 (1280x809).jpg DSC07099 (1280x1253).jpg

I think the movement will glisten once I get it cleaned.
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
76570
National watch Co, 10s, Lady Elgin model 3.
Movement and dial marked "California Lady"
20210201_204900.jpg
20210201_205052.jpg

Wonderful dial and hands. Movement is also in great condition. This is another set of labels that have been the focus of research for a while now. I don't believe they are private labels in the normal sense. Once a little more information is pulled together an article will be written up. I will say that there are 4 grades. Here are what they correspond to.
Pacific Watch is HH Taylor
California Watch is G.M. Wheeler
San Fransisco Watch is M.D. Ogden
California Lady is Lady Elgin

The California Lady is 10s so is only available in Key wind, but I've seen California and San Fransisco as key or stem. The Pacific I've seen as keywind, and think it was also available as stem wind but can not confirm.

Westward the star of empire!
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
At least one ad should be shown I suppose. Another of my favorite slogans, A Western Watch For Western Men!

After the transcontinental railroad was completed, goods could be readily shipped to the coast for much cheaper than before, and many companies took advantage of the hoards of settlers and fortune seekers now identifying themselves as westerners. National watch Co was no different.

This is courtesy of the library of Congress. Gold Hill is a hop and a skip from Virginia City and the Comstock Lode. Marketing at its finest!

This advertisement is from 1875.
1875.png
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
One more post for you tonight. A pair of grade 177 Elgin, 6s movements.

Atlas Watch Co # 7105695
20210206_121353.jpg 20210206_121237_HDR.jpg

Sun-Dial # 7582237
20210206_121338.jpg 20210206_121313.jpg

None of these are uncommon by any means, but in regards to themselves, the Arabic dials are harder to find than Roman. There are a wide range of variation to these. 18s model 4 and 5, 6s open-faced and hunter, and all can be Roman & Arabic. The most difficult to find from my observations are the 6 size open-faced which are the same movements as shown above with conversion dials less seconds bit. They are a fun bunch to keep an eye on. Couldn't pass up these two nice running movements for what I paid. Not sure if I'll clean, lube and case them.
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Here is a 16s model 6 for J.S. Barnard of London, Ontario.
20210412_205916.jpg
Grade 312, 15 jewels.
Nice signed dial
20210412_205946.jpg

I have a decent hunting case that needs a little work and a tenant. This was just about perfect for it.

Since he is from Canada, most of my usual resourses are not much help. Because of this it's hard to really sum up Mr. Barnard better than this article from the Archives at Whitby Public Library

The photo here is courtesy of the same web page, no copyright.
52964 (1).jpg

I'll be honest... I saw London and thought it was neat to find a later (1908) signed Elgin movement and dial from "across the pond". I quickly learned it was "across the lake" instead! A little under 6 hour drive from the burgh. Pretty neat.
 

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country
I've always wanted one of those!

Nice!


Rob
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
So.. I had dreams of bringing this back to its former glory... but unfortunately at this stage, its just a data point. A very interesting data point.

367022 12 Size, model 1, grade 24.
It is 7 jewels with a gold balance wheel.

The movement is private labeled for John Rossiter of Weston-Super-Mare

I cant give you a better history than their own website. The company is still going strong and despite my attempts there has been no reply. I guess if I had some goofy American email me about an old beat up watch movement sold 145 years ago... well.. its not exactly a priority i'm sure.


20210906_133224_2.jpg 20210906_133125_2.jpg 20210906_130845_2.jpg

I included the photo of the balance and escapement to show the gold balance. Also the escape wheel and pallet, actually the whole train, is exactly the same as a 10s. Yes, it was tried on a 10s parts movement just to check. In fact the 4th wheel and pinion in this watch now comes from that 10S movement. It was exactly the same in fit and finish. If nothing else, I hope you enjoy the chance to see under the dial and the escapement of a lesser common early Elgin movement.
 
Last edited:

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
8,023
4,510
113
New York State
Country
I haven't done any work on the PL above it's just sitting
looking nice right now(and running well), but I was looking at the photo and
the rounded head screw on the barrel bridge
just stood out to me like a sore thumb and I had somehow missed
it before. These Ogden's should only have flat head screws. So,
I found a correct blued flat head screw (from the same time period)
in my pile from a Chas Fargo and replaced it. It looks right now.:)

Now a Chas Fargo has the wrong round head screw in my pile hope Chas doesn't mind.




Rob
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
6,859
3,280
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
367022 12 Size, model 1, grade 24.
It is 7 jewels with a gold balance wheel.
It is interesting that this has a gold balance wheel which is atypical for the grade. I have two examples from this run (one only ten numbers away from yours) and both have the expected solid steel balance wheel. Perhaps the gold wheel was a special request to go along with the private label?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Hufnagel

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Donor
Oct 25, 2018
2,577
3,916
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
That is quite possible, Jerry. The gold balance wheels seemed popular in G.B. at the time. I can put it under the scope and maybe see if it is plated or actual gold.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
168,106
Messages
1,465,952
Members
48,080
Latest member
The Silver Kitty
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,954
Last book
400 day pendulums by happycusa