(Elgin) Private Label Research

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by John F, Jun 10, 2002.

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  1. Lee Passarella

    Lee Passarella Registered User
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    Here's mine: Grade 82 Elgin, 18s 13j (?), c. 1888, marketed by Goddard & Moses, a jewelry shop in downtown Richmond, VA. They apparently pushed a number of Elgins in the 1880s and 90s. I've seen several G&M-branded Elgins online. An OK watch in a really nice Fahy's Conqueror case.

    IMG_0403.JPG IMG_0404.JPG IMG_0405.JPG
     
  2. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    I picked this one up yesterday. Elgin Convertible # 980842, grade 50, 15 jewels marked "Myers and Finch St Paul" on the dial and movement. Looks like an original case.

    20190325_171952.jpg 20190325_172008.jpg 20190325_171946.jpg 20190325_171358.jpg 20190325_171334.jpg 20190325_171935.jpg
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Convertible Elgin's are some of my favorite watches.
    You do have a nice PL Elgin grade 50 convertible. In reference to being an original case
    it does look like there is an extra case screw mark.

    20190325_171952[1].jpg

    Rob
     
  4. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Yes it looks as if one screw is missing from the movement. I think I didn't have it mounted to the case in that shot.
     
  5. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    I checked when I got home. The only screwmarks on the case are where the screws are now. That cut out has no screw marks, interesting. No other cut outs in the rim. Since convertible movements are case specific it would be hard to say any is truly original cased. Do other maker s make convertibles? I guess I just get excited over a new watch.
     
  6. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    They're not exactly case specific. They fit older style 16s cases that are a touch larger than the standard ones of the early-mid 1900s. The 16s movements of the time made by Elgin, illinois, Hampden, and I'm sure others all took this size. Making the stem work on the convertible would just take a stem that fit it.

    I call them 16 1/2 size... I don't know where I picked that up or how accurate it is. Or just early 16s cases.
     
  7. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Thank you. Not trying to hijack this thread but did other companies make convertibles?
     
  8. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    #258 luvsthetick, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
    Yes, both Trenton and New York Standard.

    If you have a copy of the price guide look in the 16 size descriptions for both companies.
     
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  9. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Milwaukee private label in Ladd gold-filled case. I love it when the gilt plates still glisten.

    P1040786.JPG P1040787.JPG
     
  10. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Can we see the dial on this one above Greg


    Rob
     
  11. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    The watch is back at the bank. As I recall it's signed Elgin Nat'l Watch Co..
     
  12. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    That's a great looking movement and case, that movement looks new.


    Rob
     
  13. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    #263 Rick Hufnagel, Apr 30, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
    M.F. Robinson. Springfield mass.
    246713
    Listed as hh Taylor series 2.
    SW/KS

    IMG_20190430_194830925.jpg IMG_20190430_162712506.jpg
     
  14. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Interesting thing about 246713 above. All the serial numbers on all the parts of the watch have a the "1" stamped over a "0". Exception is the barrel, and the balance cock. The barrel bridge, on the top it has no double stamping, but the underside of it does. Guess this sucker started its life as 246703, and ended up as 246713 by the time it left the Elgin factory.

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  15. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Elgin grade 179
    Serial #7153345
    Atlas watch co marked movement and dial.
    Uncut brass balance
    7 jewel
    Flat Hairspring

    IMG_20190529_205315458.jpg IMG_20190529_205212551.jpg
     
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  16. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Sn 7355267
    Sun-dial marked movement and dial
    Grade 179
    7 jewel
    Uncut brass balance
    Flat Hairspring

    IMG_20190531_162856939.jpg IMG_20190531_162836751.jpg
     
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  17. Rick Hufnagel

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    H.H. Taylor sn. 75565

    Private label for Pike and Trownsell, Tuscola Ill

    National watch co. Single sunk dial
    G.w. Ladd gold filled case.

    Pike and Trownsell was a retail jewelery store in Tuscola, Ill from 1865-1875.

    Albert H. Pike 1848-1911
    Retail and manufacturing jeweler
    Also served as vice president of Aurora Watch Co from 1883-86

    Capt. Peter Trownsell 1842-1893
    Also served a stint as mayor in Tuscola
    Moved to Escondito Ca in 1887 and founded the Escondido Times newspaper. Died of consumption in 1893.

    IMG_20190820_235439237_BURST000_COVER_TOP.jpg IMG_20190820_235412300_BURST000_COVER_TOP.jpg
     
  18. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    J.T. Ryerson sn 254650

    Private label for Frank Carr, Hallowell Me.
    Movement and dial marked!
    Cut-out balance cock

    According to Maine silver, watches, and jewelery, makers and dealers from 1760- early 1900s (Maine state museum, Augusta Me.):

    Frank Carr was in business from 1867-89
    On Jly and W st.

    In the annual registry of Maine, 1870, he is listed on Water St, Hallowell.

    Gravesite records indicate he was born 1842, and died March 29, 1894 and is buried in Hallowell village cemetery, which is also located on Water st.

    Hallowell Maine is located on the Kennebec river. North of Brunswick off of I-95. Water st. Seems to be the main road through the town center.

    Thanks and have a great day!
    I tried some new lighting for these pics, sorry if it seems really bright.

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  19. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    G.M. Wheeler #304604

    Movement signed Chas. H. O. Fox, Frederick, MD.

    ENWCo. Single sunk dial

    Cut out balance cock, 11 jewels, slow train (16,200)

    Chas H. O. Fox was a watchmaker and later jeweler in Frederick MD.

    He was from Schaumburg-lippe, and the earliest records I found of him in America is in 1850.

    As a story told in my family, in the early half of the 1800s, many Germans emigrated to the u.s. because of the madness of government and taxes in Germany at that time.

    In the census records in 1850 and 1860 he was listed as a watchmaker. 1870 and 1880 listed as jeweler. He owned a watch and clock store in Frederick MD during and after the civil war, as.youll see in one of the links below. He also used the war in his advertising, there's a few good snippits to check out that I found on a great website.

    He was born in 1817 died 1893. Buried in Mt. Olivet cemetery, in Frederick.

    Here's some great links to check out! Some awesome newspaper clippings of advertisements. Make sure you click on the scan tab at the bottom of the page to actually see the clipping! All three links are different

    Historic Newspapers | Crossroads of War

    Historic Newspapers | Crossroads of War

    Historic Newspapers | Crossroads of War

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  20. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Here is an early 12-size keywind that was cased in England and then exported to Australia where it was apparently sold by S. Bennett in the copper mining town of Kadina. It is a 7-jewel grade 30 (700 made) in a London hallmarked sterling hunting case from 1875.
    365410_m.jpg 365410_d.jpg
     
  21. Rick Hufnagel

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    Grade 335. Sn 12837042
    17 jewels

    Private label for C.W. Livergood, Reinbeck, Ia.

    Couldn't pass up a great movement and dial marked private label, but unfortunately the USPS lost the package, and ill never see it. The seller allowed me to use the pictures.

    Wed Oct 3 1934 Globe Gazette tidbit on Mr. Livergood.

    Screenshot_20191010-154241.png Screenshot_20191010-154249.png Globe_Gazette_Wed__Oct_3__1934_.jpg
     
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  22. Rick Hufnagel

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  23. Rick Hufnagel

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    #273 Rick Hufnagel, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    Grade 130, 0s, 15 jewels

    Private Label for Tappin's Diamond Palace.

    Movement and Dial marked, dial having a nice "TD" logo for Tappin's Diamonds

    Paraphrased from "Landmarks of Rensselaer county New York, volume 2"

    Samuel C. Tappin was born Nov 30, 1844 in Troy, New York. His father was an English immigrant.

    Samuel Tappin entered work at the jewelery store of Emanuel Marks when he was about 14 years old. He stayed there for 19 years untill 1877 when he went into business for himself.

    His first store was located at 286 River St. Then he moved to #1 Keenan building.

    He imported Diamonds, gems, silver, french China, novelties, really a little bit of everything. His specialty was making and resetting diamond jewelry.

    Sept 14, 1898 Jewelers circular notes that he is underway with extensive improvements and changes to his store, Tappin's Diamond Palace. Just thought that was a neat tidbit.

    He died Aug 24, 1917 and rests in Oakwood cemetary, Troy, New York.
    (Death records and "find a grave")

    In our private label list, we also have Elgin Sn 2697766. A grade 103, movement and dial marked "Sam'l Tappin, Troy, NY"

    This is a beautifully damaskeened movement, but I couldn't get the words and design visible in the same picture.

    IMG_20191015_194031714.jpg IMG_20191015_193853169.jpg
     
  24. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Very nice Rick
    Very recently I've seen one of these same Tappin PL's, Troy NY
    it has different hands and dial signature.



    Rob
     
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  25. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    It's interesting to me that some cities(and states) have a lot more PL watches
    than others. I have seen more than a few from Troy, NY in fact I have
    an Illinois PL from that city(a small city in upstate NY). PL are some of the most enjoyable to research!!
    " Troy is home to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, the oldest private engineering and technical university in the US, founded in 1824" (Troy wiki)



    Rob
     
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  26. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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  27. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Jim, thanks for linking that to this thread! It's a great one

    One of my favorite Elgin Private labels is posted there by John Pavlik. It's an H.H. Taylor grade.

    It's got it all! Early stemwinder, cut out balance cock, amazing condition, and it's a D.C. Private label...

    Sense some envy?? Hahaha

    It is absolutely worth a look here:
    Private Label photos ... All 50 states

    That's a direct link to the one I am talking about in the thread Jim mentioned
     
  28. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Here's a private label from Markham, Ontario, Canada. So many Canadian private label watches used Omega Regina movements that I'm glad to have come across this 18s. Elgin specimen at an antique sale that I attended yesterday.

    The dial is signed "A. & H. Wideman". Brothers Albert & Henry in February of 1902 started the ''A & H Wideman, Hardware and Jewellers" establishment in a store they built at 85-87 Main Street N., Markham. As of 2002 that building was still standing. Judging from their advertisements for hardware, jewellery, music records, and CPR tickets, their business was apparently quite successful and enduring.

    While the "Canadian" dial of this non-railroad grade watch is specially signed, the Elgin movement was not co-signed in the brothers' names. The 17j. movement is housed in a Canadian-made yellow gold-filled case featuring a horse on its back cover.

    Wideman Dial.jpg Wideman  Mvt.jpg

    Wideman CaseInfo.jpg Wideman Back.jpg
     
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