Get out your private label Elgins! Some time back I started tracking, by name and serial number, private label Elgins, and not long ago shared what I had at that point, as discussed in this thread. Tom McIntyre generously offered to host the listing of what I'd pulled togther, in a searchable database format, and after some back and forth to clean up formatting problems, etc. (I think most of them have been caught), it's now available here, as part of the AWCo archives. What started out to satisfy a bit of curiosity has now blossomed into an ongoing bit of research, so I'd certainly appreciate it if folks could check out what's there for corrections, updates, comments, etc. Thanks! John Edited to update dead links.
Private Label Research John, All I can say is WOW. This is a very nice and useful list. I wish I had been following this more closely, because now I will have to spend a little time looking over all your work. This type project is what the NAWCC is all about. You and all the contributors are to be commended. Great job. Thanks. ------------------ JohnCote President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC Member Chapter 149 (Member #105) http://www.interstatetime.com
Private Label Research Here is one-John Mitsch, Allegheny, Pa. Jon ------------------ Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801 President and moderator chapter 149
Private Label Research I can account for 9 of these with a heart-shaped cut-out on the balance cock. Most are early to mid-1870s, and all tend to be more highly jeweled for their time (11j or, more typically, higher). The latest model was c. 1882. I suppose it's possible that later ones of this type (c. 1890s and not yet acounted for) were not as highly jeweled - a number of the "early" private labels seem to be relatively higher quality movements, while later ones (after 1900 or so) seem to run the gamut, but that may just be a function of what's survived. Maybe there's some out there yet waiting to be found...? John
Private Label Research Hello John, Great post! Thank you! I ran across this one on ebay this morning. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=883734707 M.M. Stevenson, Escanaba. Thanks again! Jack Davis Elgin, IL
Private Label Research The response to this, in encouragement and new information, has been wonderful - lots more than I anticipated! I now have a fair amount of updating to do (at least it'll keep me off the streets and out of trouble, for a while anyway...) Mikey - I agree with you about the cut-out balance cocks. They're a pretty and interesting variation. I wish I had one (sigh). Jack - thanks for spotting that one. While I've spent some time looking on ebay for examples, it's nice to have another set of eyes on the lookout. Fred - thanks to you, too, for sharing those. The Stief with the "RR Special" dial sounds interesting - are you able to post a picture? I also need to acknowledge the contributions of several others who have helped me out in this - while a bit of what I've compiled is "raw" research on my own, responsibility and credit for a fair amount (particularly since I made the original posting) is really the work of others who have freely and generously shared what they have. Any of the "nice job" credit I get needs to go to them, as well: Tom McIntyre for helping me with the "dirty work" of getting the database online and hosting it (and sharing his own private label with the cut-out balance cock); Wayne Schlitt (whose ebay logs I trolled for records of past sales); and Les Clark, Jon Hanson, John Cote, Jerry Treiman, Brian C., Kent Singer & Ed Ueberall for the private label information they had in their possession. No one had to do any of that - I'm just glad they did. John [This message has been edited by John F (edited 06-12-2002).]
Private Label Research Wow Fred, I love everything about the Steif RR Special!!! What a great watch. Thanks for sharing. That is a private label collectors dream. ------------------ JohnCote President, Indiana Chapter 18 - NAWCC Member Chapter 149 (Member #105) http://www.interstatetime.com
Private Label Research Holy shmokes! What an awesome watch - great design on the dial, and a beautiful movement. Thanks for sharing it! How about a contest - can anybody top this for an Elgin private label? John
Private Label Research John F, Thanks for the great info. Speaking of the heart shape opening in the balance cock, I posted this one elsewhere: http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/477/24860-1042.jpg Also, on page 84 of Ehrhardts 1978 Price Indicator, there is another with the cut out balance. Serial Number 326,935. Movement marked J.W. Tucker & Co., 134 Kearney St., San Francisco, Cal. Dial marked "THE MINER" with a miner illustration. (I think that Jon had mentioned that this watch had been stolen a while back). There are a few more Elgin private labels on the bottom of the same page - not sure if these are in your list. A friend of mine has this one (though not with the cut out balance): SN# 200353. Elgin J.T Ryerson. Marked "M.M. Fredrick, Virginia, Nev." on movement and "J.T. Ryerson." Marked "M.M. FREDRICK" on dial. Mike.
Private Label Research Thanks for that, Mike. I'd recorded the J. Baur earlier - in fact, I was one of the underbidders for that one, but I'm glad it went to someone who appreciates what an interesting example it is! Thanks for the leads on the others - I'll have to get a copy of Erhardt's. John
Private Label Research Hi John, Yea, the Baur is a neat watch, It was only a movement, really, but I've cased it already and will have it serviced. By the time I get done with it, I'll have more money into it than it can possibly be worth, but at least it should be well preserved for those who should own it long after I have become worm food. https://mb.nawcc.org/ I will check to see if the info in the price indicator book(s) is in yourt list,. If not, I'll email it to you. Thanks, Mike.
Private Label Research Another; J.E.Boucot Bridgeport PA 1766063 18s Gilt 15j micro-adj lever set. No dial, no balance cock. Also, the A.R.Brattin, 75620, already on you r list,is gilt, OF pierced cock, plate also has MANFd Elgin Ill, dial is National Watch Co Don Logan [This message has been edited by donlog (edited 06-18-2002).]
Private Label Research Hi John What a very interesting pursuit, I shall keep you in mind for any PL Elgins I spot. I was wondering about the provenence of one of the watches in your list on Tom's 'The Joat' page. One of the watches listed is M.W.Co Springfield 11495897 1904 18s, Gr3008, Model 5, 17j "M.W. Co., Springfield " Fancy dial I saw it was listed in Wayne Schlitt's Ebay log a couple of years back. It has been my experience that these MW.Co watches are swiss fakes, they do have fancy dials often. The watches final bid price was much less than Elgin fancy dial watches go for, especially 18 size. It is possible the watch was really a swiss fake mistakenly put up as an Elgin? I would normally email you privately but perhaps others on the board can prove me wrong as I am only 90 percent sure since I can't view the watch. ------------------ Rick White
Private Label Research Rick, I was going to mention the same thing but you beat me to it. I have one of these Swiss fake movements here. The dial is marked "M.W. Co. Springfield" and the movement is marked "Marvin Watch Co." It looks a cross between an Illinois and an Elgin, but it appears to be of a higher quality than most Swiss fakes - until you take the dial off. The dial is a two footed one, and the movement is poorly finished. This one is definately a Swiss fake, but I guess would have to see the one in the database to tell for sure if that one is too. Mike.
Private Label Research Whew! Got a little catching up to do here! Don - Thanks for the info. That makes 10 with the cut-out balance cock I can account for. As noted above, most of these are early to mid-1870s, but the number was assigned for the Brattin is a little earlier than that. This is becoming an interesting sub-set of the private label Elgins. Fred - In going back over my corrections/update list, I noticed that there's no serial number for the J.E. Micks you noted above. I would appreciate it if you could let me know what that is (if you'd rather not post the information, please e-mail it to me directly - just click on the "speeding letter" at the top of this post). Rick & Mike - Yes, there's some question in my mind about the M.W. Co. example. My source for that is Wayne's ebay logs, and like all of the dial-only private labels, there's a risk of dial switching. I'm hoping that the discussion about it will help ferret it out, so that we might be able to confirm whether it's genuine or not. In the meantime I plan to note the question about its authenticity in the "comment" field when I update the database. Or it may drop off entirely. Thanks all! John
Private Label Research Wayne, I looked up the watch a week or so ago on your Ebay logs, I wouldn't rely on my memory going back two years I was only trying to help out John, not cast aspersions on your site or watch experience. I still stand by my comment that the watches final bid price was much less than 18 size Elgin fancy dial watches go for.According to your statement it would seem that 75 out of a 100 fancy dial Elgin watches bring in a final price higher than the MW Co watch.Condition is a big factor in fancy dial prices but I didn't see any comments like badly hairlined in the comments section describing the MW Co watch so I didn't use condition as a factor in my observations. I thought the final bid price might be used as a clue if the watch was genuine or maybe a switcheroo with the dial since there aren't any pics available. My comments were based on my experience and observations as a collector, I was hoping maybe others could help out with their experience and observations. Thats why I posted. ------------------ Rick White
Private Label Research john, as requested: the serial number for the j.e. micks is 7456915, its in a philadelphia case # 8315242 regards fred
Private Label Research An update on this little project, and some more statistics on the dates and placement of private label markings. In the earlier discussion I made the observation that earlier (pre-1900 or so) private labels tended to be marked on the movement only, or on the dial and movement, but after that they were marked mostly on the dial only. With the new listings the sample size has gone up by about half (from roughly 200 to over 300), and that observation needs to be modified a little. The dividing line for movement-marked PLs - with or without PL-marked dials - seems to be about 1895. Before this time (at least in this sample), it's about at likely to find a watch marked on the dial only, movement only, or both the dial and movement. After 1895, the number of dial-only PLs is roughly 3 to 4 times that of movement-only or dial-and-movement-marked PLs, as shown below: . . . Up to 1895 . 1896 or later Dial . . . 28 . . . .117 Mvmt . . . 29 . . . . 30 D & M . . .23 . . . . 13 A few words about the post-1895 numbers: 16 of the 30 movement-only PLs are the "Strand" and "Transit" named watches, which as has been previously discussed is not clear whether these are an Elgin name or not. If those are dropped out, the number of post-1895 movement-only PLs in this sample drops pretty significantly. The updated database also now includes 70+ Ball-Elgin listings, courtesy of Kent Singer and Ed Ueberall; I didn't include those in the numbers above because those struck me as being somewhat of a special case for purposes of comparison, since they're not a "typical" PL (putting aside the definitional questions on "what's a PL" and Ball watches). However, if they're included, the proportion of dial-and-movement-marked PLs jumps dramatically. In any event, does anybody know if this pattern is shared by PLs made by other companies, or is it unique to Elgin? The earliest Elgin PL I have a listing for is from 1867, a Pennsylvania RR-marked 18s grade 69; the latest dated PL is still holding steady at 1925, with a half-dozen examples. The most common are from C.D. Peacock, with 25 examples covering a 30-year period, and who never had one marked on the movement, not even in 1895. I also can account for 11 movements with the cool cut-out balance cocks, ranging from 1869 to 1882, but most are from the early 1870s (only one after 1875). Thanks again to everyone who's been generous in helping me pull this together. The revised database won't be up yet for a little bit, but I wanted to share the numbers on the placement of the markings. Enjoy! John [This message has been edited by John F (edited 06-29-2002).]
Private Label Research John's latest list is on-line now. Same address. ------------------ Tom McIntyre Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87 Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174 NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee Pocket Horology Web Tommy the JOAT's Web
Private Label Research Wayne, To answer the last question first, my objective in this (which has admittedly changed a little bit since I started tracking) is to get a sense of what the marketing practices were and how they changed over time, so unless I could associate a serial number - or at least enough of one to determine grade and year - with a name, I thought not to include the reference. That was true both with what I found in your ebay logs and in other references. I suppose that the project could expand to try and include a listing of all known private label names for Elgins, but I hadn't thought of doing that. I dunno - that might be an interesting add-on. Anyone have any thoughts on that? As for the question about Harley logos and all (I've seen dozens with "Ford", "Buick" and lots of other similar names), I didn't track those because I couldn't be sure whether they were original or not. I also don't consider those "private labels" in the sense that they don't appear to have been done for a jeweler, inspector or wholesaler for re-sale, as would typically be the case. The question about whether a dial in which the numbers are replaced with letters should be considered a "private label" watch is a close case, and one that I hadn't considered - tho' I don't know why those would be really any different from one in which the individual's name is in a more central position on the dial. Hmmm..... John PS - Thanks Tom - that was fast!
Private Label Research I think there are at least two classes of these watches and we have discussed this a bit before. 1. Private Label for a jeweler or wholesaler. 2. Personalized for an individual. The runic dials clearly fall into the second group. The first group would include both Ball Watch Co. and W.A.G. Smith who sold my Hamilton 960. For Illinois, Burlington and Santa Fe would be private label wholesalers. ------------------ Tom McIntyre Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87 Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174 NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee Pocket Horology Web Tommy the JOAT's Web
Private Label Research Tom: I don't think that its correct to refer to Burlington and Santa Fa as "private label wholesalers" for Illinois watches. Both companies only sold directly to the customer, via mail order. By doing so, they were retailers, not wholesalers. Kent
Private Label Research I think you are technically correct Kent, but they were a little like other high volume outlets that advertized "wholesale to the public." Were there any pure wholesalers who had their own names on the watches? Would Ball be considered a wholesaler by those who do not consider him a maker? ------------------ Tom McIntyre Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87 Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, 159, 161 and 174 NAWCC: Crafts Committee, Web Committee Pocket Horology Web Tommy the JOAT's Web
Private Label Research Tom: Well ... Ball might be a special case. But, nevertheless, he and other wholesalers may have retailed watches, but they were wholesalers. All the business that Santa Fe and Burlington did was retail. They had no wholesale business whatsoever. If anything, they belong in the same category as Sears, Roebuck or Montgomery Ward - mass market, mail-order retailers. Kent
Private Label Research This one rose to the surface today while hunting for a part for a member: 10s KW #200123, signed "Vitus Martin & Son, Pottsville, Pa." on movement only-it apears to be all original. Jon, #8801 ------------------ Jon Hanson, nawcc#8801 President and moderator chapter 149
Private Label Research I hadn't been following this thread. Fred sure does have some awsome dials in his collection https://mb.nawcc.org/
Private Label Research I just bought another 194 and as I was looking through my small Elgins, I noticed that the one I already have has a Shreve & Co San-Francisco dial. The movement has standard Elgin marking. The dial is Breguet style and looks original. ------------------ Tom McIntyre NAWCC 2nd VP Candidate Tommy the JOAT's Web
Private Label Research A few more Elgin private-labels for John ... 7152565 - Atlas Watch Co. (Signed SS Arabic dial and 7J nickel HC movement) 7155131 - Atlas Watch Co. (Signed SS Arabic dial and 7J nickel OF movement) 7446043 - Acme Watch Co. (Signed SS Roman dial and 7J nickel HC movement w/ uncut brass balance wheel & white hairspring) 7528693 - Solar Watch Co., Chicago (marked on 7J nickel HC movement, SS Roman dial signed "Solar Watch Co.") 12840067 - J.W. Dunlap, Greenville PA (marked on 17J HC 3FB movement, SS Roman dial marked "Dunlap Special.") Fred p.s. Do the Acme, Atlas, and Solar count as true private-labels, and are you interested in the data on these names?
Private Label Research Thanks very much, Fred! Yes, I am collecting data on the Acme, Atlas, and Solar names, as well as Sun-Dial and America. Most all of these are super-cheap nickel 7j movements with an uncut balance, made between 1897 and 1899 in 3 grades: 177 (6s hunter), 178 (18s hunter) and 179 (18s open face). The jury's still out on the question of whether any or all of these are true contract watches or not. There's some indication that Atlas, Solar and America are, but it's far from conclusive. The most common of this group is "Atlas" of which there's an ungodly number out there. I have located an "Atlas Watch and Jewelry Co." operating in Chicago just after the turn of the century, but I still need to confirm that they were in business prior to that when these Elgins were made. There's also a boatload of "Atlas" marked watches made by NYS (also low-end, 7j movements), which to me makes it unlikely that the "Atlas" name is simply a line of low-end Elgin watches that they didn't want to put their own name on. "Solar" watches are somewhat similar - in addition to those made by Elgin, there's a pile of NYS-made "Solar" watches that carry the same movement marking as the Elgin-made Solar watches ("Chicago 1865"). There doesn't seem to be a connection between these and later swiss-made "Solar" watches for Eaton in Canada. There's also dollar watches made by Ingersoll marked "Solar" - it may just have been a popular name. Next time I'm in Chicago on business, I intend to visit the public library to go through old city directories to see if I can find contemporary listings for either Solar or Atlas. "America" watches present a different picture, and observed examples vary from the SN records. Instead of nickel, they are typically gilt. "America" Elgins are also not limited to the cheap 177/178/179 grades, but includes at least one 17j model. The dial indicates a Philadelphia location for America. I have seen a handful of Walthams also marked this way. Like Atlas and Solar, since the name appears on other makes (and on higher grade movements), this is probably not an in-house brand of cheap Elgins. A contemporary listing in a Philadelphia city directory would help to confirm this. (There are also "Pan-America" or sometimes "Pan-American" marked watches that were made by NYS for which the lettering style is similar, but that's probably just a coincidence.) So are these true PLs? I really don't know. My working theory is that these are probably outfits operating in a fashion similar to the Chicago and Non-Magnetic Watch companies, contracting with manufacturers for watches sold under their name. I have found nothing on either less-frequently seen"Acme" or the more common "Sun-Dial" watches, so for these I can't say one way or the other.
Private Label Research John, Kurtis Meyer's book on Horological Trademarks credits Atlas to Louis Manheimer & Bros. in Chicago, claiming use since 1896. Solar was claimed by Benjamin Allen & Co. in Chicago, in use since 1897.
Private Label Research Great info Jerry - thanks so much! That really helps. Does anyone know if the 1865 date on Solar watches coincides with the founding of Benj. Allen?
Private Label Research Another here ... 18531438 - Transit (17J 4 Pos. 2-tone movement, SS "Elgin" dial) Fred
Private Label Research Hello John, Recently I bought an Elgin with SN 304129. Movement is marked " W.H. Thorp Beaver Dam Wis., Manfd. Elgin Ills" Balance cock is cut out. Dial is signed Elgin Nat'l Watch Co. I'll trie to send a pic of the movement during the next days. Leo
Private Label Research 8465384 - America, Philadelphia U.S.A. (7J gilt HC movement, same markings on SS Roman dial) Fred
Private Label Research 806435 - Webb C. Ball, Cleveland O (Dial markings only, movement was a typical factory marked conv. model) Fred
Private Label Research 5,248,097 18 15 O F N 5 Adj 124 Phil Herbert Murphysboro IL 8,540,806 12 21 O 3 N 3 Adj 237 MAIER & BERKELE ATLANTA GA (dial only) 9,090,027 12 19 H 3 N 2 A5P Pat 189 D C Jaccard St Louis 13,491,011 12 15 H 3 N 2 U Pat 314 Constant St Louis USA
Private Label Research Thanks for the help, boiz! This is a nice present to get, after being away for the holidays.
Private Label Research http://images.snapfish.com/3427697923232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D32328264%3C6653nu0mrj http://images.snapfish.com/3427697923232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E23237355%3B9535ot1lsi 12016091 - The Veribest, N. Gamse, New York Fred
Private Label Research 326617 - J.W. Tucker & Co., San Francisco Cal (cut-out balance cock, SS Roman dial marked "Tucker's Granger Watch" and with image of, I think, a bale of hay) 20018127 - E.H. Williams, Barrie (Markings on 24 hour Arabic dial only, movement is a factory marked 17J 18 size) Fred
Private Label Research Fred, et.al.: The name N. Gamse, NY also appears on a couple of 21-jewel model `92s, with the marking "The American Leader": 12,028,526 16,057,339 And also on the following Illinois watches: 1,504,804 - 18S - 24J - HC - Mvt "Montgomery Ward & Co. - Special" Dial "The Queen, N. Gamse New York, U.S.A." 1,534,952 - 18S - 24J - OF - Mvt - "Planet - N. Gamse, New York" 1,913,072 - 18S - 17J - OF - Mvt "The Queen Extra, N. Gamse, N.Y. U.S.A." 2,112,909 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York" 3,381,916 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York" 3,680,709 - 16S - 21J - HC - Mvt: "The Manhatten-N.Gamse, New York" 3,743,155 - 16S - 21J - 0F - Mvt & Dial " The Union Pacific, N. Gamse, N.Y." Kent
Private Label Research Hi Kent - Thanks for the info., and I would be very interested in any further information (either here or by email) you may have on the 24J Illinois "Planet" you have listed above. Thanks, Fred
Private Label Research Thanks for that. The Gamse is a nice one. I saw one just like it a little while back, but with a damaged dial. It resold a few months later with a generic "Elgin" dial and stripped of its fancy gold hands. A real tragedy, in my opinion. The Tucker watches had some fabulous designs, and the Granger is among my very favorities. Others I have seen had "J.W. Tucker & Co. San Francisco Cal." on the movement, and at least one was more highly jeweled than the SN records would indicate (15 jewels on the grade 12, instead of the usual 7 to 11). All told, a very desireable PL.
Private Label Research 5914901 - L.L. Mason, Jamestown NY (marked on 11J HC movement and SS Roman dial) 7498702 - Cady & Olmstead, Kansas City MO (marked on 12 size 19J movement, DS Arabic "Elgin" dial with slanted numerals) 8465384 - America, Philadelphia USA (marked 7J HC movement and SS Roman dial) 11584837 - Elgin Special (marked on DS Arabic dial only, movement was a factory marked 17J OF) 17328336 - Klein & Fink, Ft. Smith Ark. (marking on SS Arabic dial only, movement a factory-marked 15J HC) Fred
Private Label Research 14282286 - Bichsel Bros., Sedalia MO (marked on SS Arabic dial only, movement a factory marked 7J gilt HC) Fred
Private Label Research Doing what I can to keep you busy John! 200042 - California Lady (marked on movement and SS Roman dial) 725116 - Advance (marked on barrel bridge of movement, are these private-labels?) 10940038 - L.T. Chapman, Franklin PA (marked on SS Roman dial only, movement is factory-marked) Fred
Private Label Research Thanks for these - you're a one-man gang, Fred! I have not considered "Advance" to be a PL, chiefly on the basis that it is listed in the Elgin material catalogs as a named grade (along with a few other PL-like names, such as "The Age" and "Chief"). However, I have not seen any advertising or other material either way.
Private Label Research 115960 - F.R. Polack, York PA (marked on movement w/ cutout balance cock) 129792 - Pennsylvania Railroad Co. (marked on SS Roman dial only, typical BW Raymond movement) 2699182 - Chas. J. Noach, Sacramento Cal. (marked on SS Roman dial and movement) 3667918 - Webb C. Ball, Cleveland O. (marked on SS Arabic dial only, 14K Webb C. Ball marked case) 5248195 - Henry W. Spellman, Nashua NH (marked movement, SS Roman dial marked "Henry W. Spellman") 6594151 - Montgomery Bros., Los Angeles Cal (marked on Arabic dial and 7J gilt HC movement) 7287131 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.") 7419101 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.") 7537563 - Atlas Watch Co., Chicago USA (marked on movement, SS Roman dial marked "Atlas Watch Co.") 10070587 - Beyerle, Reading PA (marked on SS Roman dial only, factory marked movement) 10737050 - Harwood's Special (marked movement, SS Arabic dial marked "P.J. Harwood, Jeweler, Portage La Prarie, Man") 12166493 - C.D. Peacock (marked DS Arabic dial only, factory marked movement) 14487656 - C.D. Peacock (marked SS Arabic dial only, factory marked movement) 15486464 - F.G. Wehrle, Belleville Ill (marked on SS Arabic dial only) 21052208 - Guy C. Fitz, Zainesville O (marked on SS Arabic dial only) Fred
Private Label Research I have a dial only marked "H. B. Potthoff, Latrobe, PA". Latrobe is the home of golfer Arnold Palmer and Rolling Rock Beer. This fits a 16S Elgin. I also have an 18S dial marked "Rothsteins". I know there was a Rothsteins jewelry store in Johnstown, PA up through the mid 1930's. It went by the boards in the 36 flood. What I don't know is if Rothsteins was a chain and if there were other stores in other towns. Tom
Private Label Research ...and not only is Latrobe the home of Arnie and good old No. "33" in the green bottles, but Latrobe's also home of the first professional football game in the US, in 1895 when the Latrobe YMCA bested the Jeannette, Pa. Athletic Club 12-0. I have a single record of a Potthoff of Latrobe private label, from 1888 - what a hoot if it was at the first game! A painting of the Potthoff store is attached. I have to agree with you, Tom - the only reference I can find to Rothenstein's (and there are many) has it located in Johnstown, so I don't think it's a chain. Fred, the Penna. RR watch is a great new find - hope it's yours! John
