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Elgin grade 83

model1857guy

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This was the other movement I had to buy to to get the Howard series III. Initially was just going flip this one but other than the missing seconds wheel it seems complete and runs.

What are the odds of finding the missing seconds wheel to put it back in order?

20200521_133857.jpg 20200521_133936.jpg Screenshot_20200520-122912_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

richiec

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Based on the age and low production, it's going to be tough, I am sure someone has one but they may squeeze hard to sell it.
 

richiec

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Also noted part numbers are 1074 for the wheel and 37 for the gear under the cock, I assume that the wheel is pressed onto the arbor on the center wheel.
 
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musicguy

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I have seen parts movements around but it's going to cost some $$
for that part and a proper case for it, but your dial and full set of hands
make this an ideal watch for restoration. The part should be the same
for 16s grade #'s 83, 84, and 89. Pictured below is the 84.

36A6A130-E1E5-4257-A7D5-02918771AA18.jpeg


Rob
 
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GeneJockey

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I bet that the reason yours is missing, on a naked movement, is that somebody stole the sweep seconds wheel to replace a broken one in another movement.

Crazy idea - it might be possible to make a new one. I'd bet the wheel itself has the same diameter and number of teeth as the 3rd wheel. So, maybe you could scavenge a 3rd wheel from another movement. That leaves the hub, which MAYBE a talented watchmaker could craft from brass stock on a lathe, and fit to the wheel. Has to friction onto the extended 3rd wheel arbor, of course.

Is it worth the time and expense? What the heck? It's only money! ;)
 

pmwas

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Obviously it’s ‚just’ a matter of finding a wheel of a correct diameter and number of teeth. The hub is easy for any good watchmaker - much easier than a balance staff for example.

The wheel will be wider than the 3rd wheel of the movement, because the second pinion is much smaller than the center pinion. But it probably has the same number of teeth (od can check if the pinions have the same number of leaves.

Telling by what I think is a circular mark made by the wheel on the bridge, probably the wheel was bent and someone removed it. Maybe it broke during straightening, we’ll never know...
 
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GeneJockey

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Obviously it’s ‚just’ a matter of finding a wheel of a correct diameter and number of teeth. The hub is easy for any good watchmaker - much easier than a balance staff for example.

The wheel will be wider than the 3rd wheel of the movement, because the second pinion is much smaller than the center pinion. But it probably has the same number of teeth (od can check if the pinions have the same number of leaves.

Telling by what I think is a circular mark made by the wheel on the bridge, probably the wheel was bent and someone removed it. Maybe it broke during straightening, we’ll never know...
The 3rd wheel meshes with the 4th wheel pinion, not the center pinion, so I'd bet real money the sweep seconds wheel is the same size as the 3rd wheel.

EDIT: On having a closer look, if the circular marks on the barrel and train bridges are from the sweep seconds wheel, it looks to be larger than the 3rd wheel, because doesn't intersect the 4th wheel arbor.

FURTHER EDIT: Yep. Confirmed. The Grade 84 confirms that the sweep seconds wheel is considerably larger than the 3rd wheel. SO, forget using a 3rd wheel to make a new sweep wheel.
 
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pmwas

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Yes :) the indirect drive c/s pinion is much smaller than the center pinion. On the other hand, the 3rd wheel has to be small enough NOT to reach the center pinion, while the wheel that drives the c/s pinion has to be large enough to reach that, so it has to be larger than the 3rd wheel which simply cannot be that large ;) complicated? Not that much :D
 

GeneJockey

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Huh. Because all the work I've done with sweep seconds has been with wristies, and since on the wristies I work on, the sweep seconds wheel is ALMOST the same size as the 3rd wheel, it had not occurred to me that this is not always the case. For example, while clearly on these the sweep seconds wheel overlaps the 4th wheel arbor, on the 13/0 Elgins I work on, it doesn't. Still, that wheel is JUST larger than the 3rd wheel.

Although, really, mostly the 3rd wheel only has to clear the center arbor, not the pinion.
 

pmwas

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Yes, but that depends if the 3rd wheel is close to the dial side, somewhere in the middle or over the center wheel. All three options were used often by the designers.

Also the 3rd wheel does not need to be so large to reach the center arbor, so it usually isn’t. Of course, in small wristwatch calibers the difference will be less noticable, but I think in all wristwatch calibers I’ve seen the wheel driving the c/s is larger than 3rd.

Also, the c/s pinion is usually not much larger (if at all) than the center arbor itself, so even if it only had to clear the arbor, the tips of it’s teeth would be dangerously close to it :)
 

GeneJockey

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Yes, but that depends if the 3rd wheel is close to the dial side, somewhere in the middle or over the center wheel. All three options were used often by the designers.

Also the 3rd wheel does not need to be so large to reach the center arbor, so it usually isn’t. Of course, in small wristwatch calibers the difference will be less noticable, but I think in all wristwatch calibers I’ve seen the wheel driving the c/s is larger than 3rd.

Also, the c/s pinion is usually not much larger (if at all) than the center arbor itself, so even if it only had to clear the arbor, the tips of it’s teeth would be dangerously close to it :)
Yep. I went through a bunch of pillar plates from parts watches last night. Later 16s Elgins sunk the 3rd wheel into the pillar plate, as did the 13/0 wristies. But still, they're always smaller than the sweep wheel. But boy, on those 13/0s, is it close!

I wonder how many of these sweep wheels got broken by bad removal technique? I have a Presto wheel pulling tool, which has a split foot on one side to span the arm, and it works great, but I've encountered movements where the extended 3rd arbor is bent, so the wheel is tilted when installed, probably from being pried on one side. In fact I wonder if this is the case on this movement, that led to the wear marks on the bridges?
 

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