Elgin Grade 252 marked 349?

[Alan W Dye]

Hi All,

I purchased this watch on ebay this past week: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270989035345#ht_619wt_1166 and it arrived in today's mail. In the course of cataloging it into my collection, I checked the serial number against pocketwatchdatabase.com where I usually check elgin/hamilton serial numbers. The movement (as can be seen from the photos) is marked 349 and in all respects appears to be correct and original when compared to other 349's in my collection. However, the database shows the serial number (11363531) as a grade 252 Father Time. I collect those too. The scrollwork on the balance cock looks similar to some of my other grade 252's. Damaskeening is consistent across both plates.

I have some 349's marked Father Time, but I've not encountered this before. Did Elgin mark some 252's as 349? We've seen them mark 349 on other movements (16s, 3/4 plate)... Or is it a put together movement? The screws all appear consistent and it appears to be original to both the case and the dial and the hands which makes me think it is all original...

Alan

 

[Alan W Dye]

for those not inclined to go to ebay (and for the integrity of the thread once ebay ages off the photos) here is a photo of the movement and the dial.

 

[Kent]

Alan:

All of the examples that Ed Ueberall and I have in our data base from this run (11,363,001 - 11,364,000), with one exception (noted below), are marked "No. 349"

11,363,062
11,363,1xx - From 12-year-old mail order list. The dealer didn't identify markings
11,363,209
11,363,531 - Just captured off of eBay last week
11,363,764
11,363,851
11,363,873
11,363,890
11,363,902
11,363,926
11,363,945

If anybody out there has other examples, we'd be please to hear about them.

Thanks,

 

[Alan W Dye]

Thanks Kent!

Looking at some of these in the elgin database it looks like they are also grade 252's. Do you suppose the database is off for that sequence?

Best,

Alan

 

[Kent]

Well, the online databases probably originally got their information from the serial number vs. grade list reproduced in Elgin Watch Company - Identification and Price Guide, Roy Ehrhardt, Heart of America Press, Kansas City, MO, 1976. Roy didn't identify the source, but it is obviously a copy of an Elgin National Watch Co. document (since that name appears at the top of each page). That document identifies the run 11,363,001 - 11,364,000 as being grade No. 252. So, this is the source of the information in the data bases and I don't think that it is in error in this run.

The grade No. 252 is an 18-size, 21-jewel, full-plate, movement, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and positions (see page 73 the 1903 OY Co. catalog). It is usually marked "Father Time" up to serial number 11,152,000, but there are a few exceptions. Then, for the last two runs, 11,204,001 - 11,205,000 and 11,363,001 - 11,364,000, all the movements seem to have been marked "No. 349.

Meanwhile, runs identified as being grade No. 349 were being made with the movements marked "No. 349," specifically:
10,470,001 - 10,471,000
11,415,001 - 11,416,000
11,416,001 - 11,417,000 - I don't know why this isn't considered part of the previous run
11,819,001 - 11,820,000

Then, the next run of grade No. 349, 18-size, 21-jewel, full-plate, movement is 12,749,001 - 12,750,000 which is comprised of movements marked "No. 349," "Father Time," and "Elgin National Watch Co."

Following those, there are a series of runs of grade No. 349 whose movements are mostly marked "No. 349" but there are occasional movements therein marked "Father Time." These go up to serial number 15,228,000.

Something else that adds to the confusion is that grade No. 367, 18-size, 21-jewel, 3/4-plate, movements marked "Father Time" started being made at serial number 13,505,001. And, there are examples of grades No. 239 (usually marked "Veritas") and No. 390 (usually marked "B.W. Raymond") 18-size, 21-jewel, 3/4-plate movements marked "No. 349" having serial numbers in the 14, 15 and 16 millions.

The bottom line of all of this is that the grade No. 252, 18-size, 21-jewel, full-plate, movements aren't all that different from the grade No. 349 18-size, 21-jewel, full-plate, movements. Elgin probably scheduled production of the two grades somewhat far in advance and then finished and marked the movements however they needed to fill current orders. And the same probably accounts for the 3/4-plate movements marked "No. 349."

 

[Alan W Dye]

Wonderful insight, thank you!