Elgin Balance Swap for 16s Grade 291

[ooteenie]

Hello. I am new to the hobby of repairing watches and have started with some low grade and low cost movements. To date I am happy with my success rate in disassembly and reassembly with improved timegrapher numbers.

My most recent trial is an Elgin 16s grade 291 movement (SN 11374453). Upon cleaning (with balance complete installed on plate and all other parts off) the top of the staff broke off. I am not sure how this specifically occurred as I have seen may people clean movements like this, but it's happened. I see there are a LARGE number of variations of part 691 (balance staff) which are largely different in pivot diameter some some in length potentially. My questions are these:

1) Can I get a donor movement with a working balance complete (or balance complete itself) and try it on the old movement?
2) If this does fit, can I move the donor balance complete to the old balance cock for a more authentic look?
3) If the pivots are too large/small, could I move the pivot jewels from the donor to the new and solve the issue? (I now this involves much danger to not crack jewels and hope that the diameters are the same)

I am not prepared to get into replacing the staff at this point due to a lack of tools, experience and other factors. I am also not interested in sending to a watchmaker/repair as this is a low grade movement with no sentimental value to me.

 

[musicguy]

Hi, and welcome to the NAWCC Forum!

I moved your question to the Watch Repair section



Rob

 

[Skutt50]

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear about your mishap when cleaning the parts.

Unfortunately the proper repair is to replace the balance staff. Check the balance. In the bottom you should find the movement serial number inscribed (or part of it). Replacing the balance wheel so the numbers don't match will make the watch less attractive....

The idea of buying a donor movement with a correct balance is taking a chance. Perhaps you could use the current movement as a donor for the second movement.
Another alternative is to put this aside for future repair when you gained some more eperience.

 

[ooteenie]

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry to hear about your mishap when cleaning the parts.

Unfortunately the proper repair is to replace the balance staff. Check the balance. In the bottom you should find the movement serial number inscribed (or part of it). Replacing the balance wheel so the numbers don't match will make the watch less attractive....

The idea of buying a donor movement with a correct balance is taking a chance. Perhaps you could use the current movement as a donor for the second movement.
Another alternative is to put this aside for future repair when you gained some more eperience.

Thank you for the response, I do agree the donor movement is a risk. It is an interesting thought to use the current movement for the new. Certainly the bridges on the movement I have are quite attractive, so if I could use them on a donor that is interesting, but it would still have the same SN issue.

In terms of being attractive, my goal is to get the movement ticking. Ideally as I gain more experience I can change the staff into the original balance wheel for a more authentic look.

With respect to the donor, I may give it a shot, but my hopes are low given the diversity in staffs for this movement. I think I have found no less than 8 versions of part 691. I know I can measure the balance staff, but that again requires an accurate tool to go along with the other specialized balance wheel tools etc. and a staking set (which I was able to snag for a deal (K&D set) but its held in reserve at this point)

As a last quesiton, is there a better way to clean the balance? I am using a sonicator with 111 watch cleaning solution and wash #3. I dont want to break more staffs. I honestly can say the plate didnt drop and I didnt drop anything on it so perhaps it was already weak and the sonication finished the job.

 

[Skutt50]

As a last quesiton, is there a better way to clean the balance?

I know most watchmakers leave the balance in the movement, specially shock protected balances. When it comes to these non shock protected balances, the balance has to come out for cleaning the jewels so I remove the balance and jewels from the cock and clean them separately.

(Personally I don't run neither the balance nor the pallet fork in an ultrasonic. I get the impression most watchmakers do but I have had some bad experience with jewels comming loose.)

 

[Daniel Reuben]

HI, welcome! I am new to the forum but have been an member and also worked on watches for over 30 years. I broke staffs early and it is a usual early stumbling block. It happens...My two cents: If you're going to find a donor movement you might as well just find one like that and repair it and then put in your case instead of swapping parts. I looked up your serial number and you have a lowly 7j movement. You can easily find an Elgin 15j movement and those are common (e.g. EBay or online sources or association members...). I have the exact same in a really good case that I ruined the nickel finish on the winding plate when I was over-cleaning it in high school. I finally got arouind to working on it and some others from my youth during COVID (to rectify the sins of my past). In that case, I "upgraded" to a 17J finger bridge Elgin movement but with same screw pattern so it fits the case like nothing ever happened.
If you must, a similar Elgin balance and staff should be similar but as all of these are 100+ yrs old who knows if they've been re-staffed and/or pivots over=polished and if balance jewels are the same size. I've had troubles on some Hamiltons that when a staff is broken I have to also find correct jewels and in some cases even modify staff length for correct end-shake, etc. To replace jewels correctly you need a jewel press and stumps....
Contrary to mentioned above on all pocket watches I clean with the balance out and all cap jewels removed (there is no way to really clean and moreover inspect jewels to rule out a crack). I agree with wristwatches that issue is less of a concern and with automated cleaning machines the balance assembly remains in place....
For attaining RR time, any staff replacement requires position retiming, no ifs, ands or buts....
Lastly, for now, keep in mind the two parts not to leave in hot cleaning solution for more than 10 seconds (and I don't even use hot, I use luke warm for these) is the fork and the balance. Both have shellaced jewels and if they melt/loosen or fall out you'll be learning that repair as well. Eventually all repairs need to be learned but one at a time.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

I think I have found no less than 8 versions of part 691.

I'm not sure where you got that part number, but the correct part number for the Grade 291 staff is #861. There are 2 variations: "old style" and "new style", but your watch would certainly use the "new style". The only other variable to consider is the pivot size.

 

[Chris Radek]

A watch with incabloc or similar can be best cleaned by taking the settings out and putting the balance back in place. When this is done, nothing is touching the pivots and the staff is held by the shockproof stout shoulders.

Never clean a pocket watch with the balance in place, because it is supported by just the pivots and any bump will break it.

 

[ooteenie]

I'm not sure where you got that part number, but the correct part number for the Grade 291 staff is #861. There are 2 variations: "old style" and "new style", but your watch would certainly use the "new style". The only other variable to consider is the pivot size.

I mistyped the number, I mean 861. Thank you for the clarification that this would likely be a new style. The variations I am referring to are the pivot sizes. There seem to be 4 of them that were common.

 

[ooteenie]

A watch with incabloc or similar can be best cleaned by taking the settings out and putting the balance back in place. When this is done, nothing is touching the pivots and the staff is held by the shockproof stout shoulders.

Never clean a pocket watch with the balance in place, because it is supported by just the pivots and any bump will break it.

Lesson learned and thank you for the input. Interestingly I have done two separate Bulova 17AE movements with the balance complete in place for cleaning without issue, so I guess I got lucky twice.

 

[ooteenie]

HI, welcome! I am new to the forum but have been an member and also worked on watches for over 30 years. I broke staffs early and it is a usual early stumbling block. It happens...My two cents: If you're going to find a donor movement you might as well just find one like that and repair it and then put in your case instead of swapping parts. I looked up your serial number and you have a lowly 7j movement. You can easily find an Elgin 15j movement and those are common (e.g. EBay or online sources or association members...). I have the exact same in a really good case that I ruined the nickel finish on the winding plate when I was over-cleaning it in high school. I finally got arouind to working on it and some others from my youth during COVID (to rectify the sins of my past). In that case, I "upgraded" to a 17J finger bridge Elgin movement but with same screw pattern so it fits the case like nothing ever happened.
If you must, a similar Elgin balance and staff should be similar but as all of these are 100+ yrs old who knows if they've been re-staffed and/or pivots over=polished and if balance jewels are the same size. I've had troubles on some Hamiltons that when a staff is broken I have to also find correct jewels and in some cases even modify staff length for correct end-shake, etc. To replace jewels correctly you need a jewel press and stumps....
Contrary to mentioned above on all pocket watches I clean with the balance out and all cap jewels removed (there is no way to really clean and moreover inspect jewels to rule out a crack). I agree with wristwatches that issue is less of a concern and with automated cleaning machines the balance assembly remains in place....
For attaining RR time, any staff replacement requires position retiming, no ifs, ands or buts....
Lastly, for now, keep in mind the two parts not to leave in hot cleaning solution for more than 10 seconds (and I don't even use hot, I use luke warm for these) is the fork and the balance. Both have shellaced jewels and if they melt/loosen or fall out you'll be learning that repair as well. Eventually all repairs need to be learned but one at a time.

Thank you for the detailed response and support. I do like the idea of updating the movement, however I would probably update the case as well. As you say, and I was aware when I got this, it is a low end movement. No sense starting with expensive and intricate movements which will only serve to frustrate me and I could break.

I am a chemist by trade and have thus far found this very interesting (was watching youtube videos for a long time before commiting and buying tools to start. I must say, the smaller incabloc watch movements despite being smaller I have found easier to deal with than the pocket watches.
BTW, what is "RR" time, is this a reference to an EKG (eg. the balance wheel heartbeat)?

 

[Skutt50]

BTW, what is "RR" time

It stands for RailRoad and means that it is a movement that fulfills the requirements and was approved for RailRoad use. This was a higher standard which in some respects are even better that a Rolex. I don't remember all requirements but it deals with how the dial looks, how time is set and maximum deviation. (I want to remember it was max 30 seconds in a week.)

 

[John Runciman]

(Personally I don't run neither the balance nor the pallet fork in an ultrasonic. I get the impression most watchmakers do but I have had some bad experience with jewels comming loose.)

I usually always clean everything in the ultrasonic. But any time you're working on vintage you always want to check that the shellac is still intact especially with the roller jewel. Over time it has a habit of or over time other people of done things and then the roller jewel will be loose. So even if you don't ultrasonically clean you still want to check your roller jewel just in case

Upon cleaning (with balance complete installed on plate and all other parts off)

As others have pointed out the only time you clean with the balance in is when you can take the balance jewels out. Leaving the balance in his very popular when you have systems like a etachron for the regulation because it's a pain to get that all back in again is easier just to take the jewels out. Then the balance pivots will come out nice and clean and everything safe. The problem with leaving at the pocket watch balance in as you found out if you drop litter bump that the pivots break and you definitely will not get the pivots or the jewels or anything else clean. In which case you might as well not even clean them because you're achieving the same thing at a be a lot safer.

Then the problem with pocket watches any time you start mixing and matching you can have issues. Just as there is new and old styles there were variations in manufacturing and anything related to the balance in the escapement is probably adjusted for the individual watch. Not that that's necessarily going to be an issue you're still going to have to learn how to adjust your banking pins as somebody probably adjusted them before you because their adjustable. But still when you start the mix-and-match you start introduce new problems to whatever all the problems you're trying to deal.

 

[ooteenie]

you're still going to have to learn how to adjust your banking pins as somebody probably adjusted them before you because their adjustable.

It is funny you mention this as today I was rebuilding the movement (minus the escape wheel of course) and noticed one of these missing. It was there before cleaning. WELL, I went to my cleaning and washes and voila, there it was in the bottom of the first wash jar. I didn't realize until I found it missing that they can unscrew from the plate.

 

[Skutt50]

So even if you don't ultrasonically clean you still want to check your roller jewel just in case

Agree. It surprisingly often I find a loose impulse jewel on old pocketwatches.

 

[Skutt50]

WELL, I went to my cleaning and washes and voila, there it was in the bottom of the first wash jar.

Been there, done that with both impulse and pallet jewels. That's why I clean them separately outside the ultrasonic.

 

[Daniel Reuben]

I agree about checking jewels to ensure they're stable. I would often avoid this early on, not wanting to loosen a roller jewel or pallet jewel by trying to lightly wiggle with a tweezer etc. Probably I also really didn't want to know. I agree with Skutt that many have loosened up with multiple cleanings and I found 2 when I serviced my entire collection in 2020.
One new tip also is how to remove the cock safely. I would initially unscrew and then insert the screwdriver in the wedge-shaped pry area at the base and pry it up. I thought, well if it is designed this way it should be safe. Well......not always. Sometimes you are prying at the base of the cock which means the end where the balance pivot see/saws down, onto the pivot and snapping it. So, try to be really slow, light and methodical. I pry a tiny bit, then lever the end of the cock up at the end, then pry a little more at the base, then the end, etc. Reverse with replacement and I try to view the pivot end through the upper cap jewel (easy on a 16s Hamilton with clear caps, less so on those with dark jewels and impossible on say a faceted diamond cap from a 1880s British or early model 57 Waltham, etc. Keep us updated.