Elgin 18s B.W.Raymond with unmarked barrel bridge...

pmwas

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There was a thread for ‚odd’ Elgin watches, but I can’t find it, so I post a new one...

A recent catch - a BWR with totally unmarked, ‚transitional’ barrel bridge.

No serial number visible, but struck on the underside...

According to the database, this should be grade 69 KW model.

B6384829-A388-48E7-A65E-1F735C2CBDF7.jpeg 0C2D7D67-5237-497C-9ECC-936320478A37.jpeg 88B9F304-7491-47F0-9C19-9A37D92CF9B0.jpeg D4B76AF0-F7D3-4083-8193-EF765920BAD5.jpeg 0BD6C0A0-08A7-4309-A2FC-642B9106BE64.jpeg
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Hey Paul,


Really cool piece!

I'll bet it was someone's conversion project. The blank barrel bridges could be ordered from Elgin, which would replace the keywind bridge that was originally on it.

The stemwinds mechanism on your watch is a series (model) 4. The B.W. Raymond stemwinders are model 2.
Screenshot_20210213-143555.png

That is a great neat piece!
 

pmwas

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If you take it apart, please show us!
Will do :) I’ve ordered a simple swing out case for it and will post details.
The watch appears to be all right, except the lower balance bearing is too low...
Either staff too short or needs another set of jewels, set not so deep.
Otherwise it looks good, both pivots intact...
Maybe an incorrect replacement staff/bearing...

This has a pinned dial, but lower grade, flat one.

6BEC520C-3782-4B94-AD84-9E50EAFCE19B.jpeg

Can’t be original...
 
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pmwas

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Show time ;)

B7E3B11A-4C6B-48D8-93C1-B8B154D653B0.jpeg

The problem was simple - unscrewed bearing...

The top plate is marked with a patent mark, but it’s not well struck, so it’s hard to read...

D3FB2B68-393C-4E99-98E0-842ECE35B88A.jpeg

This is another Elgin full of suprises...
The pilar plate has no S/N.

69E4A020-2D14-48A9-865A-1EB594915700.jpeg

There is something that ‚wants’ to be one...

F84503E5-9A4F-49EA-8D08-30A6F1D510FD.jpeg

...but it’s not readable.
If you use your imagination, this MIGHT look like the S/N struck on the winding bridge...

92996AE6-40D2-4AB7-ADD0-17AA51977172.jpeg

It’s a different S/N and the answer seems simple - this movement is made of two watches. Is it?

In the database, the No on the winding bridge is 17s Avery movement.
Add 1 in the front... nope, 7j and the pilar plate seems factory - jewelled.
Add 2... nope, OF. Hmmm... should I add 3?
Don’t know...

3D2C8963-FF56-45CD-8466-580B0112A48D.jpeg

The numbers on the barrel belong to the original BWR grade 69...

4CA4D7AC-6FF5-48C0-8836-85071D3CD185.jpeg

The provision for stopworks was never finished...

085BB199-F732-44CC-81F4-7BF2472604A5.jpeg


Assembling dial side...

814A976C-379C-42AB-A237-B93AE6AA8E42.jpeg

B82759C5-7C24-40AC-8F7F-D4C8B60ED27A.jpeg

A short break to take picture to send to my friend asking what am I doing at the moment...

064DD227-FBD2-491C-BA27-19E95E042DA8.jpeg

And on with the interior :)
As always, I forgot about the winding pinion and had to do that twice...

8CBFC34F-8F51-4130-9575-4D63D14AF28F.jpeg

Straight line lever escapement...

E1BDD27F-151F-43B1-AFB5-D9BCDB2530B5.jpeg

Gear train...

2562EBDD-2CA4-4462-8C94-F276694BDE9E.jpeg

Plates together...

F86C7378-136C-4787-B525-DC9A0A52760D.jpeg

...barrel...

6E292988-99CE-4BBC-A6DD-8FAA5C4A0F84.jpeg

...and bridge.

50720105-446F-4B29-85FA-22C4164C9242.jpeg

The bridge is modified and the key-post removed. Apparently along with the signatures... or maybe they were never engraved:???:

564BCB1A-DEE6-49CC-9708-E38CCEA47C73.jpeg

Cannon pinion...

2F5970F4-BDF0-4096-A5C9-E5BCFD71ECDE.jpeg

Balance assembly on...
And pinned dial...

BD217218-8162-4814-B9AB-57AB12E2853F.jpeg

Flat, low grade dial...

D72EC478-7920-4D1D-9765-1F7C57671EED.jpeg

I cased it in a Crescent swing out case...

B6E032E7-342A-4E0F-BFBC-0431B95A2A44.jpeg

Needed a hole for the pin...

14B18963-0252-45EE-8BF8-0528ED0BF34F.jpeg

Drilled... slightly too high, it turned out...

0AF3F6CE-965A-49CC-BEDC-7B0F5BF224C5.jpeg

And done!!!

1972D414-1B64-447E-846E-468CFC032926.jpeg

Nice set of hands.

So... what is it? Late BWR issue? Employe’s watch? A mystery... another mystery Elgin ;)
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Very cool, thank you!

If you look up 1419034 that completely explains where the winding and setting mechanism, and the dial came from. :)

they leave the first number from the serial off of the winding bridge. I just happen to have the same movement sitting here, so some photos for proof

This is 1717339, a low grade model 4

20210306_121847.jpg

The winding bridge omits the 1
20210306_121955_HDR.jpg

And the model 4 setup

20210306_122007.jpg

So, your watch is a combination of the original BWR movement, which someone used the stem wind and set parts and the dial from #1419034 to convert it to stem wind.

The stopworks is not incomplete, it's just missing. So are 90% of the ones on my BWRs ! Haha


Thank you for the detailed pictures! Very neat watch, glad it's got a good home!
 
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pmwas

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Yes, BUT...

- The low grade dial plate is not jewelled.

- the low grade dial plate should be set up for angle lever?

The jeweling can be done by skilful watchmaker, but the bearings setup would be wrong...
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Your watch was modified to use the stem winding parts from a low grade model 4. What's wrong with your plate being jeweled? I don't understand, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not looking at something correctly?

There's no telling who or when it was done, but it's pretty neat.
 

pmwas

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Depends ;)
I’m saying that it’s impossible that the whole pilar plate came from a (angle lever) model 4. It’s also NOT the original BWR plate as that would have a bridge for the ratchet wheel... so... what is this pilar plate:???:

Working:


:D
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Ah, now I see thank you.

I went through so many movements looking for something that your pillar plate would match up with, and I really can't find anything.

In your photos, the area where the ratchet wheel would have been looks like it was filled and re-gilded maybe? It's certainly not the same color and is a perfect circle. With the other work done on the watch maybe possible? (like the barrel bridge which looks the same way from the key square being filled in) just thinking out loud, really.

Someone put allot of effort into that watch!
 
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pmwas

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The circle wasn’t obvious when I was looking at it, but the camera caught it nicely. Maybe it is a modified BWR model 1 plate, but if so... then I think it was made in the factory. The details of the dial side are so alike model 4, I doubt someone could recreate that so well in his own workshop... but maybe I’m underestimating someone saying so...

My guess would be that it was an Elgin worker making his watch from a top-grade KW leftover in the times KW movements became obsolete. But... who can now tell?
 
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