Elgin 16s 17j Open-face Pocket watch from 1896

[RexinMinn]

A few months ago I bought an 1896 17j 16s Elgin pocket watch with a double-sunk dial that is running well and keeping good time. It has its issues, but is a good addition to my modest collection. Here is the link for the page I'm creating for the Pocket Watch Database (not quite finished entering the case data; soon to add photos) for this watch. Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches

Photos of similar watches are available on the website.

 

[musicguy]

Please post a photo here, I can't access your link.



Rob

 

[RexinMinn]

A few months ago I bought an 1896 17j 16s Elgin pocket watch with a double-sunk dial that is running well and keeping good time. It has its issues, but is a good addition to my modest collection. Here is the link for the page I'm creating for the Pocket Watch Database (not quite finished entering the case data; soon to add photos) for this watch. Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches

Photos of similar watches are available on the website.

Please see photo of the watch in question. I'd like to find a better dial for it. More photos to come.

 

[musicguy]

I'd like to find a better dial for it.

why? (Said in a nice way), it's probably the original dial that
would have come with the movement. It's really a fine looking double sunk
dial.


Rob

 

[Steven Thornberry]

why? (Said in a nice way), it's probably the original dial that
would have come with the movement. It's really a fine looking double sunk
dial.


Rob

I agree with Rob.

 

[musicguy]

Every few years, Elgin would change its dial signature. Someone who studies the Elgin national watch company can
look at a dial, and give an approximate time period of when that watch would have been
made (dial switching sometimes turns this on end). I always recommend if someone is thinking about dial switching that they first pause
and maybe the next watch they buy has the dial they are looking for. But if it is switched,
find one that would be appropriate to that time period and would have been on that grade watch.



Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Can we see the movement? The link in your original post is broken.

Dial looks awesome to me. They only used this dial signature for a short period. A very generalized date being 1896-1904.

 

[RexinMinn]

Can we see the movement? The link in your original post is broken.

Dial looks awesome to me. They only used this dial signature for a short period. A very generalized date being 1896-1904.

Here is the movement. Not a good photo, but you get the idea. It was the best of the three photos of it I took. Will try smartphone on it later on, this was taken with my old SLR.

 

[RexinMinn]

Every few years, Elgin would change its dial signature. Someone who studies the Elgin national watch company can
look at a dial, and give an approximate time period of when that watch would have been
made (dial switching sometimes turns this on end). I always recommend if someone is thinking about dial switching that they first pause
and maybe the next watch they buy has the dial they are looking for. But if it is switched,
find one that would be appropriate to that time period and would have been on that grade watch.



Rob

The reason I lean toward replacing the dial is because of how faded this one appears. It doesn't show up as well in the photo, but the fading is significant. I bought the watch because of the double-sunk dial and a look at ebay earlier told me replacing this dial within an accurate historical range will be tough, so I may as well leave well enough alone, esp. now that I've had your input which really does make a positive difference. Thank you for that!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

That looks like a #161. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The serial number would confirm but it sure looks like it.

They call these Elgins the "lace doily" movements because of the nice decoration. They are beautiful and collectable. It's a great original watch. No reason to switch anything.

If you search the forums for lace doily I'm sure you will get some good threads to look at.

 

[Marty101]

You have a real sweet one there, Rex-listen to Rick. And that dial looks pretty good to me! Original pieces are tough to find. Congrats!

 

[RexinMinn]

You have a real sweet one there, Rex-listen to Rick. And that dial looks pretty good to me! Original pieces are tough to find. Congrats!

I appreciate the kind and supportive words, Marty, thank you.

 

[RexinMinn]

That looks like a #161. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The serial number would confirm but it sure looks like it.

They call these Elgins the "lace doily" movements because of the nice decoration. They are beautiful and collectable. It's a great original watch. No reason to switch anything.

If you search the forums for lace doily I'm sure you will get some good threads to look at.

Fabulous! I'll take a look at it, Rick. And thank you for the kind and supportive words. For those of us who aren't all that sure of what we're doing it always helps to have the input of those in the know!

 

[RexinMinn]

Every few years, Elgin would change its dial signature. Someone who studies the Elgin national watch company can
look at a dial, and give an approximate time period of when that watch would have been
made (dial switching sometimes turns this on end). I always recommend if someone is thinking about dial switching that they first pause
and maybe the next watch they buy has the dial they are looking for. But if it is switched,
find one that would be appropriate to that time period and would have been on that grade watch.



Rob

Agreed, Rob, and thanks for the info which I find fascinating, and for the suggestions which I'll take! Given the input from others in this thread I believe I can safely put to rest any further notions of replacing the dial. Thanks again!

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

RexinMinn, I too would keep the existing dial. You say that it's "faded." I am not sure an enamel can fade, I and the others who have already replied to your thread have seen countless enamel dials. I don't recall fading ever being mentioned as a problem, though there are countless postings in these forums about other dial issues. What you call fading I think is just the style of the dial -- more restrained and less bold than many dials. Compare your dial to two dials in my collection that are similar to your watch's dial, both dating to approximately 1897, about when your watch was made. The first is a double-sunk dial similar to yours, except with Roman numerals. The second is a bolder-font single-sunk dial. That dial proves that dials with this signature were not always as "faded" as your dial or the dial on my Grade 155, but I am 99% sure that those less-bold are less-bold by design rather than the ravages of the sun or time.

On a 14k Elgin Grade 155 Hunter


On a 14k Elgin Grade 190 Hunter

 

[RexinMinn]

RexinMinn, I too would keep the existing dial. You say that it's "faded." I am not sure an enamel can fade, I and the others who have already replied to your thread have seen countless enamel dials. I don't recall fading ever being mentioned as a problem, though there are countless postings in these forums about other dial issues. What you call fading I think is just the style of the dial -- more restrained and less bold than many dials. Compare your dial to two dials in my collection that are similar to your watch's dial, both dating to approximately 1897, about when your watch was made. The first is a double-sunk dial similar to yours, except with Roman numerals. The second is a bolder-font single-sunk dial. That dial proves that dials with this signature were not always as "faded" as your dial or the dial on my Grade 155, but I am 99% sure that those less-bold are less-bold by design rather than the ravages of the sun or time.

On a 14k Elgin Grade 155 Hunter
View attachment 750501

On a 14k Elgin Grade 190 Hunter
View attachment 750502

Excellent points all the way around, Ethan, thank you for your comprehensive treatment of my concern. Both watches from your collection are fabulous! I'm especially struck by the one most similar to mine with the moon hands, you're right about the "more restrained" appearance. I still believe my dial is even more restrained than the "less restrained" dial on yours. I wonder if there was such a thing as an "imperfection" in this regard where the dial simply came out of the oven with less intensity than it should have. I agree with you about the idea of "fading" as it's really not possible on an enameled piece. Great point I had not though of, thanks for offering that, I believe you're correct. And may I compliment you on the quality of the photos as well, super clarity and angle of light so virtually every detail is visible. Thanks again, Ethan.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

I've just looked through the 41 Elgins I currently own to see if I could find an enamel dial of any design as "restrained" as your dial, but I didn't find one. I have no doubt that some defective dials "came out of the oven," as you put it. I am sure that nearly all of these would have been discarded, but some surely must have made on to watches. However, I don't think that your dial is so "restrained" as to be defective.

I also looked through my photos of the Elgins that have passed through my collection. I found a circa 1897 Grade 161, the same grade as your watch, with the same dial as your watch and, to my eyes, just as restrained.



I also found a nearly identical dial on a circa 1900 Elgin Grade 246. The only differences between it and your dial are that it lacks the red five-minute track and, more to the point, is less restrained. I returned this watch to the seller because of the badly damaged dial.



Based on the first of these two watches, I think your dial likely is typical of the dials on Grade 161s made around the same time.

 

[thesnark17]

I will add to the excellent points made above that enamel dials can fade, though it's rare. It's seen commonly with some makers (notably Illinois) and rarely or not at all with others.

The typical cause of dial fading is immersion in liquid. Illinois dials are notorious for fading under regular cleaning, but it would seem that any dial will fade eventually, if it is exposed to water for long enough. The issue is that the ink will gradually leach out of the enamel surface. Sometimes interesting effects result.

See, for example, this watch that buried for an indeterminate amount of time:

Help identifying a gold pocket watch

What I do and suggest for others is to use PM's to recommend repair people who aer likely to have a specific skill. A mere five minutes before, I did just that. I don't think the OP has seen it. At least there has been no response from them. Cheers.

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