Edwin Flinn date needed

[joe33158]

Hi guys, wonder if anyone could help me. I have an old open face pocket watch that was given to me many years ago and I'd actually forgot I even had it until I was hunting out my cupboards looking for a cable. Anyway, here's what I have so far.
On the case inside at the top it says "W.S" and directly under it is says[FONT=&quot][/FONT] "29" and at the bottom it has a "crown", the letter "C" and "18" which I think means it's 18 carat gold and under that it says "2774". It says "Edwin Flinn, Allesley Rd" under the cover but the bit that's wrecking my head is where is says "London 2774" I think this is a date code but can't find anywhere online to verify if that's what it is. Does anyone know what these numbers mean?
I was also wondering could it actually be worth anything? It still works and has the small key with it to wind it up. It has a few marks on the dial and minor scuffs on the glass but overall it is in pretty good condition. I was just going to sell it as I don't collect this sort of thing and don't have much interest in keeping it.

Cheers

 

[joe33158]

I have since found out that the letter "C" by shape etc has dated the watch at year 1798 so would make it Georgian? Still baffled about the "2774" This has me rather intrigued now

 

[Logan2468]

I private messages you joe. Let me know if you got it!
regards,
Logan

 

[Logan2468]

Also the "2774" I believe is just the serial number of the movement. Almost all watches have a serial number.

 

[DaveyG]

You really need to post clear sharp pictures Joe if you want focused help. Photos of the movement, the dial and the hall marks in the case would be needed. I can tell yo that 2774 will be a serial number as you surmise and that Edwin Flinn of London does not appear in the standard reference works that list watchmakers, however. Loomes lists an E Flinn of Coventry with the working dates of1868 - 1880. There is an Allesley Road in Coventry.

With regard to value, ten we do not offer valuations on this forum, there is a separate forum where, for a nominal fee, you can request members' opinions as to the value of your watch. However, if it is 18ct gold cased then there is intrinsic value there of course.

Photos Joe - photos.

 

[joe33158]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll get some photo up when I get my camera charged up so you can get a look at it

 

[MartyR]

Welcome to the board, Joe

When we have seen nice sharp photos of the hallmarks, we will be able to tell you the exact year in which the case was made. There should be two sets of hallmarks on the two covers of the case, so let us see both!

I have found a reference to Flinn & Co at 15 Broadgate, Coventry in Kelly's Trade Directory 1896 - they are listed as a Jeweller (not a watchmaker). We can discuss this further when we have photos

 

[joe33158]

Ok guys, I don't have the best camera in the world and not a great photographer so this is the best I can do for now....sorry.

 

[Logan2468]

Just without checking the hallmarks I can tell you it most definantly is not 1798. This is a later movement from probably the 1850's to 1890's. The case appears to be 18 carat gold hence the 18.

 

[joe33158]

No worries, wasn't too sure about the date anyway. I had shown it to a guy today and he said it appears to be 1800's as well.

 

[DaveyG]

The photographs are fine Joe and confirm that the watch is definitely not Georgian but mid Victorian. It is a fusee lever movement of quite good quality and appears to be in good condition cosmetically. If you could add one extra picture for us Joe it would help. If you can photograph the hallmarks on the outer lid of the case it should confirm the assay office for us and that is an important part of identifying a precise date which will then also help us to confirm the case maker W.S for which there are 2 or 3 candidates.

Nice watch Joe. How big/small is it?

 

[joe33158]

The photographs are fine Joe and confirm that the watch is definitely not Georgian but mid Victorian. It is a fusee lever movement of quite good quality and appears to be in good condition cosmetically. If you could add one extra picture for us Joe it would help. If you can photograph the hallmarks on the outer lid of the case it should confirm the assay office for us and that is an important part of identifying a precise date which will then also help us to confirm the case maker W.S for which there are 2 or 3 candidates.

Nice watch Joe. How big/small is it?

The watch is 5cms wide, not sure what you mean about outer lid?

 

[MartyR]

The hallmarks must be for a London assay dated 1878 (upper case C). William Skidmore of Clerkenwell, London used the makers mark W.S in a rectangular cameo from 1876 until (perhaps) 1878 and William Sexton who used the mark from 1879 and worked at Allesley Old Road, Coventry in 1906. Note to readers of Priestley: The "." is actually a pellet and the W.S mark is best decsiorbed under the Chester Assay Office listing!

So it's tricky. The best match-up of the hallmarks suggests to me that the maker is William Sexton. But the maker might be Skidmore.

Davey found a listing for E Flinn at Allesley Road, Coventry which would probably make him a near neighbour of Sexton in 1906.

The watch is signed Edwin Flinn, Allesley Road, London ... which might just be a marketing falsification, but then again Flinn might have opened a second branch in London ... but not in Allesley Road!

 

[DaveyG]

not sure what you mean about outer lid?

The back of the case should be in two parts, the inner part that you have pictured, which has a hole for inserting a key for the winding of the watch and the outer cover, which opens separately. With the movement in the case and the bezel (front part) of the watch closed you should be able to depress the wee button on the top of the pendant (where the loop is) and then open the outer back. If is doesn't just pop open when you depress the button just prise it open gently with your thumb nail.

Marty has come to the same conclusions as I about the case maker - but I was keeping my powder dry until I had seen the assay mark because it could, conceivably, be Birmingham 1851/52 and that would tie in plausibly with a Coventry case maker, although the dates would be a question mark.

 

[joe33158]

Took me a while to figure out but got there in the end...lol. Looks like a face with horns or an animal with ears....lol

 

[gmorse]

Joe,

That's a leopard, so the Assay Office is London.

Regards,

Graham

 

[joe33158]

Joe,

That's a leopard, so the Assay Office is London.

Regards,

Graham

Cheers mate, was looking online and found it...lol

Cheers

 

[DaveyG]

So Joe now you have the date that the case was assayed, 1878/79 and that the case maker was most likely William Sexton of Norfolk Street, Coventry. The 'maker' of the watch was Edwin Flinn of Coventry and I think that Marty has nailed the possibilities with regard to the London marking on the watch.

 

[G_Z]

Actually the signature reads 'Allesley Rd & London'

Gerald

 

[joe33158]

I think "Allesley Rd & London" would make more sense. I'm learning something new anyway, I thought that everything was made/built at the same place

So am I right in saying it's an "1878/79" Edwin Flinn 18 carat gold open face pocket watch?

Amazing how something that is 136/7 years old can work so perfectly. I think if I ever became a collector of anything it would most certainly be watches as they are so intricate with beautiful detail. I can see why you guys enjoy it so much

 

[Logan2468]

Normally if I remember right it is a lion head which means london assay. Im not an expert with english hallmarks but I believe I do remember that one.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Logan,

The London Assay Office mark is a full-face leopard's head; before 1822/3 he had a crown, afterwards he didn't. The lion passant is the mark for sterling silver. This is a useful website for case hallmarks.

Regards,

Graham

 

[MartyR]

It's an animal with ears, Joe It's the leopard denoting London.