Early Single Table Roller Escapements

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Allan C. Purcell, Aug 4, 2016.

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  1. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    No, I'm afraid I don't know who WH was. As an aside, do you have any pictures of the inner surfaces of the plates?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  2. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #402 Allan C. Purcell, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    Hi Graham,
    Has I said I must take more photographs when I recieve the watch-back in working order in about two weeks time. Though what you are looking for is there-after the dial is removed.

    Regards,

    Allan
     
  3. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #403 Allan C. Purcell, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    John- Are you writing up something for publication on the Roskell's- I think that would be a great idea. I have come accross a piece on the net about George Roskell and his family home at Gateacre. It was not very clear, so I wrote it up on my machine here. If you don't have it I will try and put it on here. If you do some type of article I would like to help-just for fun.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  4. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Allan - my knowledge is far too scant to consider writing anything worthy of publication - much to learn.

    I am beginning to create individual files, in a standard format, for the makers/retailers/case makers/movement makers etc. of the watches in my collection. This means I have started a file on Roskells, but it is at a very early stage. I am focusing on the format and breadth - trying to have the basics many individuals - rather in depth on an specific person. However, once I start a file I try and add links & notes when I see something of interest. So I, and I am sure others would be interested in the information you have found.

    I haven't come across 'George' Roskell, was that a typo? - no mention in Liverpool Museum database, Loomes, on this forum, or my other sources

    Dave Green, has considerable knowledge of the 'Liverpool clan' and has contributed a number of posts on the Roskells ->
    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?117027 for example. - so he might have something to add.

    Regards

    John
     
  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #405 Allan C. Purcell, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2018
    John-It was a typo-Nicholas was his father-though the father of Nicholas was George. Have a look at this-I found it a bit confusing-it was written when Robert Roskell was still alive.
    Roskell History.pdf

    Thanks for your quick reply,

    Allan.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    #406 John Matthews, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2017
    Hi Allan - sorry for the delay, I have been rather busy - however, I spent some time this afternoon going through the document you posted.

    I assume it is derived from the testament that you mentioned above - can you provide the provenance and date?

    Although it is a little confusing, I believe I now understand it and I am trying to integrate/interpret it using other sources and the earlier research by Dave Green in the link I posted. At the moment, I have a family tree and notes but I think I am getting there. Not sure what you think, but I think it would be useful to have a separate Roskell family thread, otherwise it could take over this one. It would also make it easier to access from search engines. So if you agree, that's what I will do, when I have something in a form worth posting. I will refer it back to your document here and to Dave Green's contribution.

    Regards

    John
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi John-All sounds very good to me-we will then have the family tree all in one place. I feel you and Dave have done us all a great favour.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #408 Allan C. Purcell, Jul 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2017
    Hi Graham,
    I hope these are what you wanted to see. I notice there are two holes for banking pins-toward the centre-these were probably not the answer-so they came up with the strange bolt that fits in the hole (Half Hole) in the top plate.You can now see this piece of metal can be move from side to side when the screw head is loosened. If you enlarge the plate photograph you will see the hole does not go through the plate.

    Regards,

    Allan. 312142.jpg 312143.jpg 312144.jpg 312147.jpg 312148.jpg
     
  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    Thanks, at least this clears up how that banking works, with a pin clamped in a slot in the lever tail.

    However, this lever does not resemble any really early examples that I've seen, and I don't agree with you on this point. There are two sets of holes in the plate between the lever and the balance, and although the inner pair is well placed for conventional banking pins, the outer pair is too far apart for any banking function. It's pretty clear from the re-arranged banking that this isn't the original lever, although whether this implies that the roller is also a later replacement is less apparent.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham.
    Do you think this watch was experimental-If the escapement was changed-who and why and when are the next questions.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    It does appear to have been an experiment in the banking arrangement at least, and the lack of any other examples of this suggest that it wasn't regarded as a success. Everything is quite well finished, so it appears to have been a professional job.

    The 'who' and 'why' will I think remain a mystery, and the 'when' seems more likely to be closer to the middle of the century than the 1820s.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think Graham-we must agree to disagree.

    Regards,

    Allan
     
  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #413 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2017
    ... 312694.jpg
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    The only way I can see that the escapement in the picture could work is if the lever was actually the other way up, because the safety dart as shown cannot act on the passing crescent in the roller. As shown the dart will bind on the impulse jewel.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham - You are quite right, this photograph was taken that way to show the safty dart. The story behind this watch is of great interest, and I was going to write it up last night- then we had a late visit,
    and I had to leave it. I will try and get the story on the board later.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    Ah, that explains it. The escape wheel shape is reminiscent of that in the early lever escapement by John Leroux, although here the lift is all on the pallets and his was all on the teeth. The entry pallet appears to be radiused, in contrast to the flat exit pallet, and there doesn't seem to be any draw.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #417 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 7, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    So the above photograph is from an article by Wolf Brüggermann in the Spring of 2016 (Spring-Frühjahr) Journal No. 145 page 32 to 38. The escapement is in a repeating watch by Pe`re Bouhelier. There is very little known about Bouhelier-he was a French priest who had been tought mechanics-living in an out of way villiage in the Franche.Comte- Saint Julien by Charquemont where he was born. during the winter months the locals made parts for pocket watches-in the late eighteenth century-mostly cylinder wheels. When the French Revolution started-he left France and went to England. Ihe ins and outs of his decision to move to England are not know. How long he stayed is not discussed. Facts are he was a catholic priest-he would have spkoken latin, French, and more than likely German. We in England had at this time A German King. I believe French was used has the political language-and many catholics had there documents recorded in Latin. My research so far is at the begining-and the first problem I found was Pe`re Bouhelier is the name of that poor priest who was beheaded in Paris last year by the IS. I have of course tried to get in touch with the author, though I think he maybe on Holiday.The e-mails I sent did not come back.
    The watch is numbered 715 and photographs were gained from Antiquorum Genf: The date given for the watch is c1815. When I know more I will write it up. If anyone out there knows anything about this French priest please let me know.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  18. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    #418 Dave Chaplain, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2017
    Here's one that interests me for several reasons:

    - compensation curve
    - Massey 3
    - diamond end stone
    - OF silver case marked Chester 1832 [O] by [JLS] (probably Joseph Lewis Samuels), no case number, seconds register
    - seems all original, and in good condition
    - an early southern maker/retailer

    - retailer is (John) Bliss & (Edwin) Whittemore, New Orleans (partnership from about 1832-1835, when Bliss moved his family back to NY, while Whittemore continued in New Orleans with several different partners in the silverware business) - examples of their silverware are known but this is my first look at a timekeeper marked for them

    - Whittemore was later involved in a Louisiana state Supreme Court case, minimally to do with a number of watches he purchased from John Taylor for $50 each ... the gist of the case having to do with 3rd party creditor rights.

    So based on what I've read here it's a fairly early example of temp compensation from a retail outlet, and maybe because Bliss was serving up comparing watches for the busy port traffic out of New Orleans? And possibly his earliest attempt at serving the marine timekeeper market? 312959.jpg
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dave,

    Looks like a Massey. The twisted decoration on the regulator lever is unusual, and also the fact that it's in an English case rather than a locally made one, as many Liverpool movements exported to the USA were.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  20. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Thanks for your comments Graham, but the twisted decoration on the regulator arm is only a trick of the light!
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Dave,
    Nice idea to publish the Bliss & Whittmore pocket watch. I take it Bliss was the watchmaker who joined Fredrick Creighton in New York. When they did that c1837 they had problems finding good workmen to enlarge the firm. They bought in the ebauches from England then finnished them in the States. Though by the time of the Crystal Palace Exibition in New York 1848 the Americans could claim they made complete chronometers including the chains. There is more in "The Ships Chronometer" by Marvin E. Whitney-Why not tell us the whole story Dave. Thanks again for posting the watch.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  22. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Hi Alan,

    I also posted the same info in the Chronometer section of the message board due to the John Bliss connection. If I were more confident about what I know I'd post more of the story! I did find an interesting web blog that calls into question some of the Crossman and Whitney accounts for Bliss, so I chose not to repeat. Here's the link to that blog, which for what it's worth seems to have been well researched ... http://blissweb.org/blisschron.org/jbliss.html

    Dave
     
  23. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #423 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Dave-Thank you,

    I have prited the above-and I am reading it with pleasure. I will then stick in Whitney's book.

    Allan.
     
  24. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    #424 Dave Chaplain, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2017
    Addition / correction to the case data on the Bliss & Whittemore: the outer case has no number, but the inner dust cover has the number 9812 and an additional peculiar mark of F. R. & O. ... I've looked closely and that's an "O." rather than a stylized "Co.", although I suppose the O. could have been punched over something that was there before ... 313131.jpg 313132.jpg
     
  25. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #425 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Hi Dave,
    What we have here is a silver cased watch HM. Chester 1832. Case makers mark JLS (Joseph Lewis Samuel) The Escapement is a Massey III and it has a massey compensation curb.

    In Priestley's "Watch Case Makers of England" he dates JLS 1835-58. I would think they used the mark for a couple of years before they registered it. F.R.& O could be a springer, and the number on the inner cover I find odd. The number on the watch is I think 1592 or is it 7592. I dont think in the short period they were in partnership they would use the larger number, but you never know.

    What makes the watch most interesting is its early engraving on the watch for two American watch makers- I think its a great find.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  26. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #426 Allan C. Purcell, Sep 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    So here we are again with the early lever escapement-I would just like to update the Roskell No.28015. I believe it to be a first class attempt to use a double roller lever escapement by Robert Roskell in c1820. There are those who disagree-though only based assumptions. I feel that's a exciting and interesting challenge. Those who have seen this watch and those who have worked on the watch believe it to be 100% original. The watch is now back with me after a total overall-it is now in a silver case of the period HM Chester 1828 case maker TE&HF Thomas Ellison & Henry Fishwick. This case was in poor condition, but now this too as been overalled-in fact a re-case, to protect it from dust. At a later date I hope to have a new case made and it will be hallmarked 2018. Before it went for repair and cleaning the chain was twisted on the barrel, now it can be fully wound and runs the full length of the chain. Yesturday laying flat on a table it gained less than thirty seconds. Please see photographs below.

    Regards,

    Allan. 316223.jpg 316224.jpg 316225.jpg 316226.jpg 316227.jpg 316228.jpg
     
  27. PapaLouies

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    Hi Allan,

    Are the pallet stones adjustable and held in place by a screw at the end of the pallet? I think I see a screw in that location per one of your photos.

    Regards, PL
     
  28. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #428 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 2, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
     
  29. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hello Dr. Jon.- Bought the movement below from Davied Penney, and thought you would like to see it. It is a early STR or ETR made Sigismund Rentzsch working London 1813-44 (Loomes).
    DP quote "Single-roller detached lever escapement, the steel lever with rack-type counterpoise and banking pins on the same side of the lever, both early signs. Pennington-type compensation balance". I would say c1821-25.
    I thought this would please you. that one of these early makers used a compensation balance.

    IMG_4352.JPG IMG_4353.JPG IMG_4354.JPG IMG_4355.JPG IMG_4356.JPG IMG_4357.JPG IMG_4359.JPG
     
  30. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Today this thread was viewed by over 20,000 thousand people-pity only 8 of them read it:rolleyes:. Anyone else got an early Sigismund Rentzsch watch, from what I
    have read so far he started work in London in 1811-13. o_O

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi PL,

    I don't think you've had an answer to your question; I believe the screw you're seeing is the banking arrangement which is set in the lever tail and its unthreaded upper end banks in a recess in the top plate.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  32. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham- Nice of you to answer PL´s question-I should have said we answered that qustion by PM. In fact the so called screw has only a very small turn at the base,
    If turned right it loosens the rest of its lenght so it can be slid Right or left for ajustment of the banking- somewhat like the slides on Rack levers.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
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