Early, Parkinson & Frodsham Cylinder movement.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Sep 30, 2015.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg Hi I just added another Parkinson & Frodsham movement to my collection, this one with a Cylinder escapement. It is very early going by the Serial Number 481. Yes Martin it is not complete, but I love it. Sellers description: MOVEMENT : "Signed and numbered (481). Nice quality cylinder movement with jewelled endstone and 4 arm balance.
    MOVEMENT SIZE : 5 mm between the plates. Top plate 41.8 mm. Dial plate 45.85 mm. Dial false plate 51.25 mm.
    MOVEMENT CONDITION : Complete though not running. The balance swings nicely and everything seems ok but very dirty. Needs to be stripped down and cleaned.
    Frodsham and Parkinson were working in London together from 1801." Regards Ray
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    There's been a bit of a rash of English cylinders lately, and it will be interesting to see the cylinder and escape on this one when you receive it. I'm especially interested in these since I have one from a particularly good 18th century maker on the bench at present.

    This one appears to be Coventry made.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Nice, Ray :D

    The firm did indeed start up in 1801, and was a partnership between William James Frodsham (Charles Frodsham's father) and William Parkinson. Their first premisses were at 4 Change Alley in the City of London, where they remained in business for 89 years. Parkinson died in 1842 and Frodsham passed the business soon after that to his sons George and William, The business stayed in the direct family until the early 1900s.

    William James was a third generation watchmaker, and a fine one too! He was elecetd Master of the Clockmakers Company for two consecutive years, and he was also a Fellow of the Royal Society.

    I have a sibling of your watch - very similar except that your movement is more heavily decorated. Mine is dated 1816 and is suspected of having been converted from a duplex. The dial and hands are amazing! Interpolating between the serial numbers, that means your is probably around 1808-10. Does yours have a dial?

    60 1 Parkinson & Frodsham.jpg 60 5 Parkinson & Frodsham.jpg
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Martin, unfortunately mine does not have a Dial; I have a few plain Dials. Regards Ray
     
  5. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    This discussion intereests me particularly, since I have just ordered from David Penney a lever movement by the same partnership. I shall of course post images and details here when it arrives; meanwhile it can be seen at http://www.antiquewatchstore.com/home/2491-parkinson-frodsham-change-alley-london-no-1613.html . The serial number is 1613 and Mr. Penney suggests a date of about 1825, which seems entirely consistent with the dating of Ray's and Martin's examples. Condition is apparently similar to Ray's movement apart from the fact that the dial (plain enamel) is still present.

    The most interesting feature is the lever platform, which is of the later English type with two curved sections cut out of each side. Until now I have always supposed that this pattern did not begin to replace the rectangular lever until about 1860.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  6. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    That is interesting, Oliver.

    We have Ray's cylinder movement dating to c.1808, and your lever dating to c.1825. Then right in the middle of those we have mine which is converted to lever dating to 1816.

    I had always assumed mine was a later owner-prompted conversion, but now I wonder whether it might have been converted by P&F themselves before its initial sale? Further, I wonder whether it was converted from cylinder rather than duplex - I'd love to hear Graham's views on how easy it would be to tell the difference. The "conversion from duplex"suggestion was, after all, made only in an auction catalogue :) although supported by a repairer.
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    P & F Liverpool.jpg Well we are starting to get a nice little collection (not sure what to call a collection of Pocket Watches and movements by the same makers, like a Murder of Crows?) of Parkinson and Frodsham Pocket Watches. It is good to see the differences in construction and different escapements. I include my other movements and a Verge (parts) by Francis Parkinson to have them all on the same post. Regards Ray P & F.jpg Parkinson & Frodsham.jpg 2 (1).jpg Carcase.jpg
     
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    I wouldn't care to make a judgement on this question without having the dismantled watch in front of me, and even then it wouldn't necessarily be conclusive, but as a first stab I'm inclined to focus on the pitching of the escape and balance wheels. I guess another clue would be the presence, or otherwise, of any banking arrangement on the balance wheel, on the cock table, or in the potence, suggesting a cylinder.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Maybe I'll send it to you, Graham. I'd certainly be very interested to find out.
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Martin, you can send it to me any-time; "oh golly it got lost in the post". Seriously, it is a fantastic looking Pocket Watch. Regards Ray
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

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    That one is more like my 1834 one with the diamond endstone and the jewelled escape wheel. The engraving is presumably always an option down to the retailer, are the designs of the rest just what was current at the time or all optional and ordered as such? Just how much of the work is down to Parkinson & Frodsham?
     
  12. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    'I had always assumed mine was a later owner-prompted conversion, but now I wonder whether it might have been converted by P&F themselves before its initial sale? Further, I wonder whether it was converted from cylinder rather than duplex - I'd love to hear Graham's views on how easy it would be to tell the difference.' (MartyR)

    The unusual inscription on the cock of your movement, INVENIT ET FECIT ('Invented and constructed [it]') suggests to me one of two things: either this watch began life with an experimental escapement which proved unviable and was therefore replaced, perhaps (as you suggest) by the makers themselves; or alternatively the lever escapement is not a conversion at all but original, and the inscription was intended to assert Parkinson & Frodsham's claim to be the originators of this design.

    I find the second possibility (if it is a possibility – I may only be fantasising) especially exciting. A non-Massey detached side-lever escapement dating from 1816 would surely be among the earliest of its kind, and until now I have never come across any suggestion as to who invented this classic escapement type.

    Does the movement actually show any outward signs of having been altered, such as redundant pivot-holes?

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  13. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Sadly I'm entirely unqualified to answer that question, Oliver :( All I have is the following part of the repair/service report which I received from a repairer whose opinion I value highly:

    [FONT=&quot]
    If that doesn't answer the question sufficiently, I will send it away for an expert view on the specific question now being asked. Your suggestions now make that particularly worthwhile!
    [/FONT]
     
  14. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    I would be pretty sure that P&F themselves sub-contracted the engraving of their name and address - the three examples we have now seen are all identical in that respect.

    The question of the engraving on the movement plate/balance cock is interesting. My watch has the inscription on the balance cock, and it would seem unlikely that the cock could have been engraved over that. Equally, I can't see that a retailer would want "invenit et fecit" inscribed, so I guess that either P&F themselves or a sub-contractor engraved that. Taking all of that into account, I see no reason to suppose other than that P&F directly controlled all of the engraving on the plate.
     
  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    The two impulse pins would explain the engraving on the balance cock, and this isn't necessarily too early for this variant of a lever; Savage was making his two-pin escapement around 1814, (but not patenting it), when Massey first patented his levers. However, this isn't to say that yours is a Savage!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Martin,

    Another feature of your watch is the presence of screws on two of the pillars, which would not have been normal in 1816, so presumably these were altered at some later date. This lends some weight to the possibility of a later conversion.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Just to let everyone know, I will be sending my P&F to Graham for a forensic examination as soon as he has completed his current projects, and I will report back here when that is completed ... which will be some weeks ahead.
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Martin, that is a really good idea and we might find out what it started life as. Sorry about giving the Pocket Watch anthropomorphic attributes but if ever a Pocket Watch deserves these attributes it is one made by Parkinson & Frodsham. This Watch is one of the nicest that I have seen. Regards Ray
     
  19. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Here at last are some images of my Parkinson & Frodsham lever movement, mentioned earlier in this discussion. It is a rather rough specimen with a damaged balance and a non-original endstone, but it does serve to show some interesting details of construction.

    The balance-wheel is unusual: made of brass, with a rim that is rectangular in cross-section and exceptionally thick - almost as deep as it is wide. The arbor of the fusee is extended and squared off, presumably so that the set-up can be adjusted from the back by means of a key (slightly smaller than the main winding-key) without removing the dial. The dial itself retains a small circle of five-minute figures.

    The most unusual feature, however. is the lever. Until about 1860, most English levers had the pallet-anchor mounted on a steel platform of plain rectangular form; after that the platform was narrower, with rounded ends and two shallow crescent sections cut out of each side. This watch has an example of the cutaway pattern which is not only remarkably early (about 1825) but remarkably extreme; the outer end of the platform is no wider than it is deep, and the banking-pins are no more than two millimetres apart. In two of the pictures I have tried (not with entire success, I admit) to show this lever in some detail.

    I may add that I have also just bought a duplex movement by Barrauds of about the same period, and this shows a striking resemblance to the Parkinson; it has the same screwed construction, the same extended and squared fusee-arbor and a similar (though not so thick) brass balance. I wonder if there was some collaboration between these two firms?

    Oliver Mundy. parkinson_back_01.jpg parkinson_back_02.jpg parkinson_front.jpg parkinson_lever.jpg parkinson_lever_detail.jpg
     
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Oliver,

    That extended barrel arbor is unusual, but presumably the click is between the plates somewhere, otherwise it would be of little use. The lever tail is reminiscent of some of the "resilient lever" inventions. If there's a marked similarity between movements from different "makers", perhaps they came from the same frame maker?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #21 Omexa, Nov 19, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
    Hi Graham, I have now received the movement and you did want to see between the plates. Strange Hinge placement on False Dial Plate? I thought that English Cylinder Escape Wheels were made of Steel, this one looks like Brass; or is it some kind of Alloy? 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg Regards Ray
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    The joint being on the brass edge rather than the pillar plate is quite common, especially as appears in this one, it's had a larger dial fitted at some time. English cylinder escape wheels are often brass, gilt or otherwise, with the very best ones being solid gold, although steel was used with ruby cylinders.

    Yours has the typical English wheel rim shaping, as compared with the Swiss style which has semicircular gaps between the teeth.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I have a nice "Finer & Nowland" Cylinder movement with a Steel (I think) Escape wheel. Unfortunately it has a broken Centre Wheel. Regards Ray 11.jpg 10.jpg 9.jpg
     
  24. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That certainly looks like a steel English style wheel.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  25. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #25 Omexa, Nov 19, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
    Hi Graham, I will have to look to see if it is a "Ruby Cylinder"? I looked and it isn't. Regards Ray
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I'm afraid very few ruby cylinders have survived; when they broke, a steel replacement was much cheaper and easier, and indeed eventually it was the only option.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Martin. "Just to let everyone know, I will be sending my P&F to Graham for a forensic examination as soon as he has completed his current projects, and I will report back here when that is completed ... which will be some weeks ahead." How is this going? Regards Ray
     
  28. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Graham has completed his Holmesian task, but I've been too busy to tell you all ;)

    The very high probability is this:-

    Parkinson & Frodsham bought in (from Coventry) a raw movement frame for a cylinder (or possibly a duplex) watch. P&F then modified that raw frame to accommodate a lever. I believe, therefore, that this may be one of the very first lever movements made by P&F.

    The major piece of evidence is that Graham is completely satisfied that the movement was gilt after all the pivot holes and oil sinks were drilled out. Graham is also satisfied that the legend "Invenit et fecit" on the balance cock is sufficient evidence that P&F carried out all this modification work themselves.Here are Graham's more detailed conclusions to the questions I posed in the superb forensic report which he has sent me:

    1. From what was this converted to lever?
    It has not proved possible to determine this with any certainty; a cylinder or duplex are equally possible alternatives. However, the term "converted" is probably inaccurate, since the evidence suggests that it was never finished as anything other than a lever.

    2. Approximately when was the conversion carried out?
    It is highly likely that the conversion was made during the initial finishing. All the elements of the movement are plausible, albeit some are very early, for a date of 1816, and the likely scenario is as follows:• A "raw" frame for a duplex or cylinder movement was acquired, probably from a Coventry workshop, on the evidence of the Coventry "star". It would have had the major train wheels planted and roughly depthed, but the arbors were left over-length and the pivots were as yet un-formed, so that the holes in the plates would have been quite large.
    • Finishers at Parkinson & Frodsham would have dismantled the plates, fully plugged the large pivot holes, formed the pivots on the arbors, and planted the train with the correct depthings. Much smaller bushings may have been used in the final finishing of the holes. The pronounced pinkish colour of these large plugs as compared to the yellow brass of the plates is unusual.
    • The decision to convert the escapement to a detached lever was possibly made at this point or earlier, and certainly before any gilding was carried out. In keeping with the innovative approach of this maker, the two-pin layout was chosen, together with the "waisted" lever; whether screwed pillars were also included is more debatable, since their use for all four pillars would have been more likely, and there is evidence that the pillars concerned had been damaged. (It is clear that the movement retaining dog screws are an original feature, since the clearance cut-out on the edge of the barrel bar is also original).
    • Once all the necessary holes were finished, (including the ones for the lever potence), and the engraving, including that on the otherwise plan balance cock, the plates and other components were sent for gilding. That the lever potence and the pillar plate bar were not included is a mystery.
    • The movement then went through the normal processes of finishing, springing and timing before being sent to the case maker, who also made the very fine dial, on the evidence of the hallmarks.

    3. Are there any clues to suggest the conversion was carried out by P&F?
    The precise wording used in the balance cock engraving would not have been used if another party carried out the work; Parkinson & Frodsham did not need to add anything else, since their name was to be engraved on the top plate. The introduction of the table roller and the "waisted" lever were both innovations of which Parkinson & Frodsham were early adopters. The components associated with the new escapement are all finished to a good standard commensurate with this maker's quality.

    4. Are there any unusual features of the movement which might relate to the "Invenit et Fecit" legend on the movement?
    Parkinson & Frodsham were innovative and creative watchmakers, introducing several novel concepts in their watches, most relevant to this movement being the detached single roller lever escapement in the form which was to become the standard in English watches, (the two pins here being a very specific case), the lightening of the lever by forming "waists" in the sides, and the use of screws to hold the plates together. It does not appear that any patents were granted for these components. Any one of these three could be a candidate for the engraved legend, but the lever escapement is the most likely.
    The specific use of two impulse pins in the roller is rare, as has been noted above, but this was a period of intensive experiment and innovation in escapement design, with George Savage and Edward Massey both evolving successive solutions to the challenges of manufacturing a reliable and economic version of Thomas Mudge's invention of the previous century.
    From this it may be concluded that they were ready to experiment, and it could be that this watch was used as a form of test-bed for these innovations, some years before they are generally expected to be met.

    There is a lot more detail in the report, including some excellent photos, but I'll let Graham answer any questions you may have :D
     
  29. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I have finally acquired an example of a Savage two-pin escapement. It is a rough example but serves my purposes of having study pieces for as many different escapements as I can find. This seems like a good thread to post some details as the movement (No.1533) is from Parkinson & Frodsham at Change Alley. It lacks dial, motion works, case and has also lost its original balance cock, but the rest of the movement is there and functioning :p. Having done a little homework on P&F I note that this movement has pinned plates rather than the plate screws common on many other of their movements. I also noticed an extra oil sink in the top plate, close to the balance and thought maybe it had been converted from a cylinder or duplex escapement, but having read Graham's analysis of Marty's No.999 and studied the movement further I begin to wonder if this was just an unused hole in the original frame. My movement is actually not far from Oliver's No.1613, but has a different escapement and regulator. If mine is a conversion I do not know if it was an in-house conversion at time of finishing or a later conversion by someone else. Some factors and peculiarities are described below. Perhaps the most unfamiliar to me is the placing of an "Internal Plate" (as I have called it) to support much of the escapement. This seems most to me like it must be a later addition. Have others seen an internal plate like this?

    It is difficult to photograph the interior of the movement and I am not going to take it apart right now, so I will describe some of the features of the train as best I can:

    1) The 2nd wheel (center wheel) is a solid wheel with no spokes and is planted as usual in top and bottom plates.
    2) The 3rd wheel lies in the plane of the pillar plate with pivots in a subsidiary bridge under the pillar plate and in another "Internal Plate" on the top side of the pillar plate. I think the unused hole and sink in the top plate line up with the 3rd wheel and was unused because the 3rd wheel arbor is cut short and set in the Internal Plate.
    3) The 4th wheel is pivoted in the top plate and passes through the Internal Plate to the same bridge under the pillar plate in which the 2nd wheel is pivoted.
    4) The escape wheel and pallet arbor are pivoted in the top plate and the Internal Plate. The lever to which the pallet is attached has (as best as I can see) concave contours near the tail. The lever narrows to a thin stalk at the fork end, where it passes between the banking pins. This reminds me of the "resilient lever" in Oliver's movement, but at the other end of the lever.
    5) The balance, surprisingly to me, is also pivoted in the Internal Plate rather than a potence as I am used to seeing on full-plate movements. The rim of the brass balance wheel has a rectangular cross section and I also see a small hole in the rim of the balance suggesting it once had a banking pin.
    6) The escapement is a classic Savage 2-pin escapement.

    For my photos I have removed the ugly but functional replacement balance cock. One can see the extra holes for the steady pins of the replacement.
    View attachment 351105 View attachment 351104 View attachment 351103 View attachment 351102
     
  30. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Jerry - thank you for giving me the 'eye's up' on your Savage - is there any chance you can photograph the roller and lever?

    I thought the square cut out was an indication of conversion from a verge, which I think would explain the unused holes and possibly the internal plate. I say possibly the plate, because I have seen that on a couple of other movements, which I had not thought were conversions. Perhaps it was simply a way of reducing the distance between 'standard (Lancashire) raw movements' to accommodate part of a particular train. I may (probably) be mistaken, but I am sure Graham will put me right.

    Regards

    John
     
  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    I think John is correct that this is a conversion; these extra internal plates are most commonly seen in such conversions, which in this case is almost certainly a verge, as suggested by the square aperture and the banking pin hole in the balance rim. Lychnobius' John Leroux repeater has a very similar arrangement for its conversion to a lever, but it is unusual to find such a conversion to a Savage rather than an English lever. However, P&F were known for their innovation, so it would be no great surprise that they may have made this conversion themselves.

    The solid centre wheel and the third wheel running in the pillar plate bar are both standard in most 19th century English watches.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  32. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Did Parkinson & Frodsham produce verge watches? Is this more likely to be a post-P&F conversion or a verge frame that P&F adapted and finished?
     
  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    I've never seen a P&F verge, but the company were in business from 1801 until at least 1847, so it could be either. It may be the lighting, but the name bar gilding does look a slightly different colour from the rest of the top plate. The frame is possibly a Coventry product, although the presence of the "star" isn't always proof of this.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  34. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Thank you, Graham, for your informed comments!
    (and, yes, the color differences are just the lighting).
     
  35. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    #35 Jerry Treiman, Jul 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2017
    John, per your request. I still have not taken it apart to get a complete look at the lever. However, a second look has caused me to reassess the lever shape -- it does not narrow to a thin stalk, as I said in note 4, but instead tapers down to the fork end. You can see the last of the taper in my photo, below.

    311415.jpg 311416.jpg
     
  36. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    #36 John Matthews, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Jerry - excellent photographs, thank-you.

    A definite Savage and it certainly looks like a conversion to me, which makes it the first conversion to a Savage that I have seen and I will add it to the list as such. A nice find. I will not speculate 'from what', as Graham will be the far better judge. The tapering of the lever to the fork end, is not uncommon, it is a feature of my Birch and Barraud & Lunds, however, it looks more pronounced on your example, which I think is earlier.

    John
     
  37. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    The Savage levers usually have a thin and pronounced taper, and the earliest examples often have a "D" shaped counterpoise on the lever tail, rather similar to a rack lever. The square aperture in the top plate shows the very faintest file strokes in the corners, which are the last vestiges of the small but more pronounced decorative elements often found on earlier verges.

    It's a shame that extra holes were drilled for the replacement balance cock, rather than it being properly fitted using the original ones; presumably an old repair?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  38. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I finally took apart my Parkinson & Frodsham to study the escapement a little more closely. It clearly originally had a verge escapement, which I guess is unusual for this company. Looking at the serial number I note that the "1" is upright while the "533" is slanted. Could this originally have been #533, with the number modified when the escapement was changed? The internal plate was also evidently added to work in the new escapement. I will repeat one of my earlier photos, too, pending their eventual recovery.
    Park_Frod_1533_m.jpg IMG_1841.JPG IMG_1846.JPG IMG_1840c.jpg IMG_1843.JPG IMG_1849.JPG
     
  39. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    The serial number is interesting; MartyR's early lever P&F in a case hallmarked for 1816 has a serial number of 999, yet your Savage conversion from a verge is 534 higher. Whilst bearing in mind that serial numbers can be anything but strictly sequential, it does raise the possibility that it may have been re-numbered.

    The additional internal plate was the usual method adopted when converting from an older escapement to a lever. I notice that the pallets appear to have draw, which seems to have been adopted by Savage from the beginning, and the lever is very narrow at the fork end, reducing inertia. The way the centre pinion has been finished is impressive.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  40. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    #40 John Matthews, Dec 7, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
    Jerry - many thanks for the posting the photographs of the dismantled movement. I particularly like the clear picture of the lever.

    The serial numbers listed in Mercer's 'Chronometers of the World' commence with #259 dated as 1819 and the next is #1627 dated as 1825, followed by a number in the 3500 range around 1830. The chronometers purchased by the Admiralty in between 1840 - 1860 were in the 2400-2500. Within the text there is also mention of #228, 253, 254, 259 &1048 being used in expeditions into the arctic in 1818-1820. There is a duplex on D Penney's archive #1722 hallmarked for 1825. Martin's #999 dated as 1816 does not fit well into the sequence of number <2000, which speaks to Graham's comment 'anything but strictly sequential'. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of V Mercer's Frodsham book, so I am not sure whether that includes an attempt to make sense of the serial numbers across the watches and chronometers.

    Not sure if that helps with the possibility of re-numbering, but it might help to provide some boundaries. The only other observation is that Ray's example above, #481 has N in front of the serial number - I wonder if this was a characteristic of the serial numbers around 500.

    John

    EDIT Note the serial number information here on the Frodsham site, is for Charles Frodsham only.
     
  41. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray-Looking at John´s post made me get out my Frodsham by Mercer-and John and Graham seem to be spot on when they say the number cannot always be relied on.
    Mercer tried a list for Parkinson & Frodsham by hallmark. I was looking for a date for your 481 and 613-so look below.
    Parkinson & Frodsham. WATCHES.
    Number Date
    324 1817
    344 1805
    478 1804
    541 1854
    620 1819
    654 1823
    743 1819
    948 1823
    1102 1820
    1292 1824
    1625 1825
    1801 1827
    It goes on like this to 1880 with number 6292. It is obvious some are recased 541 of course. Though the way I see it your 481 and 613 could be anywhere between 1805 and 1819.
    There is no work book for Parkinson & Frodsham for these early watches.
    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  42. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Regarding the confusing dates versus serial numbers in the previous post, I do not see any notation as to whether these are London or Liverpool movements. Could the two locations have different number series?

    Also, paying attention now to the original post, Ray's movement bears some remarkable (to me) similarities to my Brockbanks cylinder movement, notably the finish of the balance cock and the London signature.
    Brockbanks_5548m.jpg 2-jpg.jpg
    (second photo added from Ray's postings above)
     
  43. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jerry,

    Could be, but equally possible is that they were using ledgers with crash numbering and when one book was full another was started with its own unrelated sequence of numbers; without the ledgers we're just guessing about the apparent anomalies in serial numbers.

    It's true that there are indeed marked similarities, which could be accounted for by both movements being from the same frame maker, and possibly even engraved by the same hand. Clerkenwell wasn't a large area, although a lot of talent was crammed into it.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  44. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    It matters not where the movements came from-blanks were never numbered-the instruction on the engraving plus number came from those who were selling the watch movement when finnished.

    Regard,

    Allan.
     
  45. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Allan - I think you missed my point. I am not talking about numbering of unfinished movements. I am talking about the products finished and sold out of London (Change Alley) and and those finished and sold out of Liverpool (Castle Street). I am suggesting that perhaps the two locations may have numbered their watches independent of each other. If so, then a mixed list of products might not make sense unless you separated the two sources.
     
  46. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Jerry, Sorry, I had to think hard about your reply till the penny dropped. Mercer in his book does has you say. So the numbers I gave above are for Parkinson & Frodsham London.
    He does not give much information on the Liverpool shop. Quote " Frodsham Liverpool 3093-1853 Henry was running the shop then. Though I have a chronometer by Henry Frodsham
    I have yet to see a Henry Frodsham pocket watch, there was a movement on ebay once but there was very little left of it.

    Regards,

    Allan.

    IMG_3206.jpg
     
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